Early Spay-Neuter Risks & the Rebuttal & your contracts - Page 2

Oh I forgot a few! I am almost 60 so I have had dogs alot longer than some others on here.
Going back to the 60's! We had a fox terrier. He was NOT neutered and did develop testicular cancer. Move again a couple of decades and I remember three male GSDs, not in the same decade and not related, 2 purchased from other breeders, all 3 developed benign prostate hyperplasia and were dribbling urine and blood. It resolved after neutering. They were about 6 or so when this happened. A few more examples for that asinine theory and if one wants to say, "oh an awful lot of dogs with issues" because they have nothing else to say, so be it. I've owned more dogs for the entirety of their lives in my many years and proud of the care that they got.

Funny that I am really REALLY neutral on this subject and sincerely was looking for "some nice" people to just comment.

If I think of any other dogs that were NOT spayed or neutered that have had issues I'll post again, other wise I will continue to look for someone who knows something on the subject.

LOL. That wasn't the article I was even talking about with regard to Hemangiosarcoma. Did you really read all of every article? You don't need to answer that.

Newbie, bless you for adopting those animals. I am not trying to be insulting, but I see plain as day the different characteristics caused by neutering. That Lab is textbook.  You can argue that those changes don't "matter" and that's fine...it's your right and your opinion and beauty truly is in the eye of the beholder. Personally, I wouldn't do anything to a dog not medically necessary and known to have medical consequences, as I view myself as their protector, first and foremost. I have seldom seen true improvements on nature, so I choose to let it take its course on many matters.

Back to contracts, stuff like this is precisely why I'm quitting breeding.

1GSD1, you're awfully touchy for someone who was just asking and "doesn't care." You never mentioned ages of death (frankly, I don't know why you mentioned Hemangiosarcoma at 12....you gotta die of something and I don't think cause of death at 12 is nearly as significant as cause of death at 5 or 8, for example.)

"SEE YA MISSY" pretty much summarizes your mentality, so no, I won't waste any more energy, though I was trying to present something useful for OTHER people who might read this and actually care to put on their critical thinking caps and form their own educated opinions.

The lab in the photo was not grown, was an adolesent one year old. He grew normal. Being someone that grew up with labs on the chesapeke bay in Va Beach and Maryland as well as had field trial dogs in my youth, I feel I am able to accuratly judge how he matured. We rehomed him to a hunter and his family when we found the right one we felt would suit. He matured to the best of his unknown genetics. I feel genetics will dtermine more so than nuetering on how a dog will end up looking. He was a rescue from unknown background of breeding. He was hip and elbow xrayed and passed as well as no other medical issues. He went on to be an excellent bird dog and house companion instead of remaining in rescue.

Thanks GSD Newbie for your pictures and your opinions on the subject. Your dogs look great!

Thank you, I try my best to keep my dogs in top condition and health at all times. I am fortunate I am able to be with them 247 to do so.

  Ps the gsd bitch in photo with the boston was spayed at age 2 and in the photo she is 4. She does not suffer from her spay either. She still lives with me now at age 7.

In my contract I ask to wait until 12 months - when all the growth plates close. I do it not only because I worry about their joints and overall body development - I also believe that early spaying does have an impact on dog's mental maturing.

There are plenty of dogs that didn't have issues when spayed early (but honestly how many of them had OFA ratings done?) but also we've got giant Goldens from normal parents, dogs that never mentally matured and dogs who's joints went south. Why breeders have to be responsible for that?

How many breeders put a clause in their contracts that feeding a dog with the inferior diet will void the contract? Why breeder should give a replacement puppy or refund the money to a person that made the dog sick by feeding in wrong in a first place? Everybody knows how easy is it to mess up the pup in the first year of its life. Breeders don't have an influence over the psychological part of raising the pup - all we can do is to try taking care of their physical well being.

Those are just some things to think about...     

My last GSD was spayed during her first heat at 9 mos. She had no problems whatsover. Still grew strong, solid muscle, shiny black coat. No problems, but then again she only lived for another year before she was killed. :'(

Our old poodle was 9 years when he was neutered - thought it would stop his marking, but it didn't. Within the next 3 years he went blind, deaf and developed SEVERE allergies and aggression (though that was probably partly due to his poodle-ness). We would come home to find clumps of bloody hair all over because he had torn himself up so bad. It got to the point where he had to be watched constantly, and unfortunately led to us having to put him down.

Our (or my dads in all technical-ness) current dog is an 11 year old mutant shih tzu/yorkie. He was neutered by his previous owners as soon as he was able to be. We think he has a thyroid problem, as while he HAS lost about 15 lbs since we got him, he still weighs 35 and while he isn't *fat* he could still probably lose a couple of pounds. He also has these big lumps on his belly that the vet says is fat deposits, but the more weight he loses the bigger they get. He also chews on his paws, to where he clips his own nails. Annoying as hell. I should also mention that he is about 3-4 times the height and langth that you would think a shih tzu/yorkie would be. Whether any of that is due to an early neuter, I don't know. He is stubborn and annoying and refuses to listen to anyone unless food is involved.

My mom has a Golden that has never been spayed and she is 11 years old. Shes a big sweetie and has no problems aside from occasional allergies/hot spots when she sheds. She is starting to get arthritic and is slowing down and starting to get cataracts in her eyes, but thats all due to age.

My next dog, I won't be spaying.... at least not right away, unless its needed.

1GSD1

Here's a concept for you. When did reproductive organs become a disease that must be excised?

There is a reason we have reproductive organs  and the related hormones are essential to our health and well being. Ask any woman who has had to have an early hysterectomy about what it does to hair, skin, temperature control, mood and mental health etc etc. Try reading about eunuchs and consistent in the discussion is the vast physical changes that happen to their body.

Lack of normal necessary hormones affect muscles, bones and ligaments. The horrendous increase  of patella and cruciate ligament surgery is directly related to the push for early spay neuter. Most vets now push for you to neuter no later than 4 to 6 months - that's a baby -equivalent to about a 5 year old human child. Would you recommend birth control never mind a hysterectomy for a 5 year girl because you were worried about controlling her sexuality when she became a teenager?

And for those that say we must s/n to stop the "overpopulation" of dogs just two things to note.
1. Do your homework and find out the real facts. There is no "overpopulation" because if there truly was why do we bring in dogs from China, Romania, Mexico, Puerto Rico to name a few to run thru our shelters  to insure there are "adoptable" dogs.  There are still areas of the country that suffer from an overpopulation of irresponsible owners ( not breeders) but in most areas euthansia rates have dropped dramatically with education ( here in CA by 80% in the last thirty years)

2. IF you are a responsible dog owner ( fenced yard, trained dog etc etc) an intact animal is not an issue. I've never had an "accidental" breeding even when living back east where the yards are not fenced - so I used kennels to protect my dog and since all my dogs are first and foremost house dogs, bitches in heat merely got walked during their heats as opposed to being put out in a kennel during the day because that would be risky behavior. But if for you it is a challenge to maintain a bitch in heat it's still relatively easy. Board her for the 10 to 15 days she is at risk of being bred. This used to be the bread and butter for the kennel business. Most kennels I know maintain covered kennels for just that purpose (with partial walls). I can see absolutely no problem to maintaining an intact male - again if one is a responisble owner and the dog of course does not run free which it should not in today's society anyways because it inevitable it will be hit by a car, shot, poisened or stolen.

Again, how is it that we have come to think of reprocutive organs as some sort of disease process? They are not!

I took Drake to a new Vet a couple of weeks ago (new to him, I've just moved back to the area and have had past dogs there) and as soon as I walked in the door the Tech commented "He's not neutered, is he?"  I said he wasn't and she said she could tell just by looking at him, "you don't see that bone structure and huge head on neutered males."  I agree.

1GSD1

Here's a concept for you. When did reproductive organs become a disease that must be excised?

snip.....

PEOPLE, I am really neutral.  The only reason I gave some personal examples was because I had them to give. A small sample of dogs doesn't make a control group.

These studies are talking about early spay neuters, 2 and 3 months of age and about the traditional 6 month age of spay/neuter. They talk about not neutering immature male dogs especially and how the decision on females is a little more complex. I suppose one could argue that a female who had her first heat cycles is mature or nature would not allow her to have it at whatever age she was. The Sanborn article, when talking about the negative side of neutering and spaying refers to "if done before 1 year of age" for males and females.


Again I am neutral and did want opinions without the nastiness and as far as that goes one can just go back and read the many many threads that some people post on and see their tone which rests my case in that regard. Their tone is there in black and white.

Valid points TIG, but how many pet people that are great homes and already have a male dog as a pet want to deal with a heat cycle or board their bitch for a heck of alot longer than 10 days. Some males neutered or not, just won't give up. Fact is they don't want to and I have never had an accidental breeding either and can't imagine how someone could have an oops litter, it's beyond me, but everyone else isn't me nor you. Also alot of those pet homes are responsible or they wouldn't have our pups, but don't want to deal with it and it's not just once if people are saying 24 months, that could be 3 cycles if they are 4 or 5 monthers. Yes I know so don't sell them a puppy will be the answer.

Sounds to me before 12 months for a female might be a better option. Most will have a heat cycle. One would have to be sure the people understand there could be swelling and she may be ready to come in or started and they didn't see it as she kept herself clean. That is not an irresponsible home because breeding isn't their thing. My brother is a PhD and has a female Shitz Tsu (sp) and thought she had 2 cycles in 6 months and I told him I doubted so since she was only 7 or 8 months old. 

Males I see no need for neutering unless they end up with issues and dribbling blood which I had happen over the years so they were neutered then. The article clearly states that this is a bit more complex when talking about females.

I will say try to have that contract upheld when someone's vet tells them to spay or neuter and they come back to you with hip issues later on and it goes to court. We can talk here all that we want to but what is reality, is.

So if anyone has any thing else that supports the rebuttal or the studies other than their opinions, feel free to post. I will talk to my vet who may very well blow it off and go with the Texas A & M rebuttal but I'll push for more answers and post if I get any.