Internet buyer - Page 2

 Well you weren't wrong, per se....just not totally accurate in your thinking.

I hope that the comparison chart below will help you to understand HD "ratings".

Personally, I wouldn’t get puppy from repetitive Fast Normal breeding, especially if the Fast Normal rating was given to the grandparents. It looks to me that the results “skip” the generation. You may have “normal” hips in both parents but if grandparents had “fast normal” you will likely see “fast normal” hip ratings in some puppies.

OVC/OFA discourages from breeding dogs with Grade I/Borderline/ Fast Normal results. The chances are the dog may have some problems in the future.

OVC       OFA              FCI(Europe)            BVA(UK)                   SV(Germany)
Normal Excellent       A-1                         0-4 (no > 3/hip)              Normal
Normal Good             A-2                         5-10 (no > 6/hip)             Normal
Normal Fair                 B-1                        11-18                                 Normal

Grade I Borderline     B-2                         19-25                             Fast Normal
Grade II Mild Dysplasia C                         26-35                           Noch Zugelassen
Grade III Moderate Dysplasia D               36-50                               Mittlere
Grade IV Severe Dysplasia E                     51-106                             Schwere

Additionally early spaying/neutering of a dog (before it reaches 12 months of age) may have a negative result on the hip development (partial closing, or non closing of growth plates) resulting in developing of HD…

 While such charts exist, they have been proven inaccurate due to many many instances of totally inconsistent ratings. Right off the bat, I take issue with calling SV "a" fast normal equivalent to B hips. Um, hello????

Niesia, what is wrong with some "fast normal" ratings in puppies?

As I have said and will continue to say, I would rather have a dog consistently, reliably, produce OFA fair than occasionally produce OFA excellent and produce a handful of dysplastic ratings. 

There is NOTHING WRONG with a dog who bears a "fast normal" rating---in case people fail to notice the letter in front, they are still "A" HIPS! If you want to breed to improve hips, then breed to a strong hip PRODUCER, not necessarily a dog w/a better rating! 

Don vom Rolandsteich, anyone? 

Jenni78,
Am I mainly acquainted with the OFA results and I know how they work. You have three certified by OFA vets look at submitted X-rays. OFA gets their opinions and take average/lowest score, i.e. 2 good & 1 excellent - rating will be good, 2 fair & 1 excellent - rating will be fair (never good), etc.

I don't know how the SV procedure works. My vet rated my dog’s X-rays "Excellent" but she got only "Fair" from OFA.

I cannot respond if SV "a" fast normal is equivalent to B hips - I simply do not know. But I have in my town “a” fast normal “German import” with recognized hip dysplasia. I believe they are going to do a hip replacement surgery since they spent a little fortune on a purchase of a Sch3 male…

Jenni78, I don’t have a single problem with “fast normal” rating at all. As long as dog is healthy and as a parent doesn’t produce dysplastic puppies. I wish there were only “Excellent”/ Normal rated dogs out there… My only concern is what % of SV “fast normal” dogs are OFA “borderline dysplastic”?
For breeding purposes, to improve on a breed, I wouldn’t choose a dog with “fast normal” rating where there were dysplastic dogs in a pedigree (parents or grandparents). Strong PRODUCER from dysplastic parents can produce “healthy hips” – but what about the offspring of those “healthy” puppies if they are not a strong producer? I think in breeding you have to look a little bit further than just one generation. I think we wouldn’t have a HD problem at all if somebody back in the past wouldn’t knowingly breed sick dogs just because they win at shows or have good titles …

I agree with you that I would be satisfied with the dog consistently producing OFA fair (be aware that OFA fair is still normal hips). SV “fast normal” rating combines OFA fair / Borderline Dysplastic rating). I wouldn’t continue to breed the dog that produces dysplastic and “excellent” offspring in one litter.
And that is just my personal opinion.

 You missed my point, Niesia. I threw in Don because he was a known improver, though he himself was a3. There will never be an end to the argument whether a3 is fair/borderline or straight up dysplastic, but the fact is that he improved hips down the line; my whole point was centered on NOT only looking one generation ahead.

I personally think OFA is just about as reliable as the weatherman. However, I can put that aside and even still, find flaws in that chart which you're basing your opinion on. What I'm saying is you really CAN'T, imo, compare them at all, so stop pondering "what if" an SV normal or fast normal dog would be rated OFA mild. If breeding OFA excellent or good to OFA excellent or good is all it took to eradicate HD, then that would've been accomplished with all the doorknob breedings of hips to hips that people like to do to keep their consciences clear. It simply doesn't work that way, unfortunately.  

OFA is nothing but opinions and a vote. EVERY other system has some type of science behind it. I see a much greater potential to compare other systems to each other than OFA to anything else, as OFA changes depending upon whose desk they land on.

Jenni78,

I agree with you that X-rays certified by OFA, SV or others are subjective, as every diagnosis - therefore it is all to breeders. You know your dog creates problems down the line - don't breed him. I've heard stories about people resubmitting OFA results and having them upgraded as a result, but I also heard about dysplastic German dogs being rated normal by SV because of the kennel the dog was coming from or his achievements/titles - to allow the breeding of such dog... Problem exists in my opinion only because of us breeders, we breed dogs with faults and we do it knowingly…And that's it.

 Well, sure, but that's never going to change. You're always going to have greed. I think a lot of dysplasia is the result of ignorance though, and not just greed. Many people DO care and simply are misinformed or underinformed about their lines. VERY few people do the kind of genetic research that is necessary, IMO, to be considered "responsible." I think they clear their consciences by doing their hip certs, health clearances, etc. w/little regard to red flags (like 3 dysplastic littermates, etc.). It's much easier than finding a truly breedworthy animal from longstanding healthy lines. They are simply not interested in the work that goes into a properly planned/researched litter with regard to health and temperament. 

This is why I was saying that I would rather have a dog w/less-than-stellar hips who is from a long line of good-producing hips and produces the same, several generations down the road than one OFA excellent like so many people choose to breed a whole program based on.

I was selling an OFA excellent bitch recently. I was shocked at how many people wanted to breed her based on that. Her sire has a zw of 103, and fast normal hips. So, here we have proof that a dog can produce better hips than he has, and also a sad testament to how little people really understand about hip dysplasia and how eager they are to breed a dog JUST BECAUSE it has excellent hips!