Blue and livers - Page 2

Quote: "Tell you what. Find me a breeder who regularly produces completely heatlhy, anatomically correct off colored GSDs who have attained real performance titles and/or working certifications and then we'll talk. Find me some livers, blues, whites, whatever who meet SV breed survey requirements in absolutely every area with the sole exception of color." ************* Okay, I have seen one working police K9 that was liver. A muddy, un-pretty liver at that. :-) Other than that, I agree with you: show me one with PROVEN working ability and temperament. The problem with that is taht the breeders who have produced such dogs sold them to pet homes as "dirty little secrets," if they let them live at all.

Mystere, I'm going to be working with a LSC white to prepare and hopefully title for his BH. Really neat dog, first white I've met with a temperament like this one, gonna be super fun. :)

 Okay I'm blank here, what is LSC? I probably know it, I just can't think of what it is at the moment.

Long stock coat.

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ya, I'm kind of partial to them.

    For anyone to say that a dog is any less capable of performing the tasks expected of it's breed because of it's color, is IGNORANT!!!
    The color may not be the standard or even accepted by "reputable" German Shepherd breeders and competitors, but they ARE German Shepherds none the less, and they DO exist and appear on occassion. It's a crying shame they are culled and denied because of their color.
     This is Reddy. A police K-9. His father is my BLUE male, Blue, who unfortunately has passed on.
Blue was a beautiful male dog, with an excellant temperment, an excellant coat and as good if not better conformation than many of the TOP bloodline offspring the "REPUTABLE" breeders are producing.
     I was very proud of Blue, and his pups.
This is the letter I received the other day (from an active duty police officer)  regarding my boys pup:
Joni,
Here are a few pictures of the dog that I spoke to you about. His name is "Reddy", named after a Trooper killed in the line of duty (Arthur A. Reddy). He has already assisted with a few arrests on Long Island and will assist with ALOT more. He graduated the New York State Police K9 school on December 1st, 2010 after 5 1/2 months of Police K9 training. He is trained in locating Narcotics, Tracking Fugitives, Handler protection and Crowd Control. He is an EXCELLENT dog and I couldn't be more happy with him. Thank you!
When you decide that you are going to breed more German Shepherds, PLEASE let me know. . Thanks again.

Chris

     This little guy also has a job.He is now a certified "therapy dog" that frequents the veterans home,bringing plenty of happiness to disabled and aging veterans.(He does NOT have any skin or health issues).

     Now these were pups out of Blue also. All have perfectly acceptable pigment, and excellant temperments.
     You can't judge a book by it's cover!

I do not advocate culling/killing of the pups who are off color. I am sure that they could be great dogs. I believe that they do not have great working record because they are usually not chosen for sport or work by GSD enthusiasts.  Just do not breed for that color.It is wrong, it is slippery slope, it is introduction of new potential problems. There is no reason to breed for these specific colors there are plenty other natural colors. Most natural color is sable. GSD is a "natural " dog. If you introduce these genes into the genetic pool than they will pollute it and influence it. That is what worries me. If you want to breed these colors create a new registry and do not introduce them intentionally into GSDs. If i find out that in the pedigree are these colors within 10 generations then i will eliminate such dog from breeding program and i will also not stud my dog to such dog. Same as bad hips and other specific degenerative problems.
I implore you. Do not breed for these colors.
Prager Hans
http://www.alpinek9.com
P.S. sorry for the "delusion"  it was a result of improperly and carelessly applied spell check.
H.

I have writtren this somewhere else here but it is worth repeating.

Breeding for unusual colors (liver, blue,...).
10.31.2010

Wolf had been domesticated in a short time ( some think it was 3 or so generations) because man changed his behavior and start throwing leftovers out. More tame wolves started to come closer and closer to the dwelling of these humans and became more and more tame. With tameness then came physical changes which we never see in wolves. Floppy ears , domed skulls, curled tails, different color patterns. So here we can see a change from temperament to color , size and structure and so on.
This was not a result of selective breeding for these traits but unintended consequence of breeding for single trait for non timid wolves . We can say that because some of these changes were not important or not desirable. Like heat cycle of the wolf in December 1x per year in contrast with multiple cycles of dog in different part of the year. The characteristic of one gene changing multiple characteristics is called pleiotropy and more importantly so called antagonistic pleiotropy where the effects may be contradictory. Some are beneficial and some are detrimental to such animal.
You were asking why not use people example . Well here is one. Some people are phenolketonuriaks.This is a change in a single gene which influences enzymes and diminishes important ability of one enzyme to change into another enzyme. This single gene change then also produces mental problems like mental retardation and diminished pigmentation of hair and skin and so on. That is one of many possible example which lead to a reasons why it is believed that diminishing of pigmentation is an early sign of degeneration. Thus breeding for blues, liver which is breeding for diminished or blocked pigmentation may or will bring eventually other unintended consequences.
Remember if you breed one trait long enough then you will invariable change other traits. It does not matter if you start with color and change temperament, or structure, or physiology, immunity or vice versa.
Modern day example of the same effect described above involving wolves was done by many, but most famous is Belyaev's experiment to breed silver foxes for tameness for period of 60 or so years. The animals after about 40 years changed other behavior like wagging tail, licking hands, jumping on care takers and it also changed physical structure like curly tails domed head and coming into heat 2 x per year. This is a famous experiment and it is a hardly a secret.
Belyaev's experiment lasted almost 60 years and involved thousands of foxes. Thus you can not expect that breeding for for examples colors like liver or blue will have instant pleiotropic changes. These changes are usually very gradual and are often missed by the breeder. Kind of a boiling frog effect. Frog thrown into boiling water will jump out but if we put a frog into cold water and increase heat gradually frog will boil to death.
So if you are trying produce something new in the breed always be aware that there are unintended consequences which are usually negative.
Prager Hans
http://www.alpinek9.com

Last time when liver and blue discussion raged here,  I have encountered adamant resistance of  some breeders of blues and or livers. I would beg all such people to open their mind , educate your self and  reconsider their actions.
 As for the buyers, please vote with your dollar and do not seek such breeders. However if there is an occasional blue or liver pup which was not bred on purpose, then they could be viable dog members for any purpose besides breeding.Thus if you are so inclined , give them for ever home.
Prager Hans
http://www.alpinek9.com