Questions & answers about GSD structure/ conformation - Page 2

Ibrahim,

Hope this is helpful

Some blades are lower than the spine. -- Low Withers
Some blades are very level with the spine -- Level Withers
Some blades are higher than the spine and with a dip in between the two blades -- High Withers,
the dip is where the Scapular muscles are anchored.
Some blades are higher than the spine and have a clear dip behind them (not the dip in between) into the spine. --This is where the thoracic verterbrae ends and the lumber verterbrae starts.
Some blades are more into the neck itself rather than in the back and away from the above line from knee joint (elbow) to blade tips (towards the neck). -- Forward placed shoulder blades,shows a shorter neck and affects the forward reach.
One blade was a bit higher than the spine and the tip point past the above line towards the back as shown of the above dog --A very well laid shoulder blade,show's the length of neck.

 Yes I believe the answers are clear and withers is also explained through the answers. I want you to know that the shoulder blades clearly below the spine belong to a female who when I posted pictures of her got a comment from you that her withers are low, she belongs to a friend of mine, to remind you of her here is the link

http://www.pedigreedatabase.com/german_shepherd_dog/forum/37469.html?pagen=1#39382

Anyone who like to see how low withers look like on a GSD can see her in the above link. Thanks Sonora for the answers, I will wait for Rik to make his own comments on the picture he posted for front angulation, hopefully we learn how to check for the front angulation correctly and verify with the standard then I will put forward some more questions.

Ibrahim

 Okay Rik,

I sent the picture to a friend who has Autocad on his labtop and here is the result:

The angle between between the two lines is 106 degrees. He made a horizontal line that passed through mid of the angle, the upper angle is 44 degrees and the lower one is 62.

Me checking manually on the monitor got 110, 45 and 65. This is what my final answer is and what we are doing may have an error + - 5% at best.

Ibrahim

 I have also been thinking that if in the GSD to get correct shoulder angle it should resemble the dog you posted where the tip of blade behind the elbow, maybe you will never get a correct upper arm angle, it will always be more !!!!!!

Ibrahim

 Then maybe the practical thing to do in the standard instead of assigning specific angles is to set a ratio between shoulder and upper arm angles. What you personally think?

Ibrahim

Ibrahim, + or - 5% is is getting it down there.

A shoulder lays 2 ways. Back and in. And really are terms that refer to angles.

Lay back is the angle of the shoulder blade from the shoulder joint back to the spine.

Lay in is how the blade lays in towards the spine from the joint.

Spread your hand across your dogs chest and feel the joints. This distance is much wider than the distance between the tops of the blades at the spine. The blade lays in towards the spine.

hope this makes sense,

Rik

hello again Ibrahim, I see where I caused some confusion. I only meant to present one angle. That made where the upper arm meets the shoulder blade. This is the angle of the shoulder.

I made it look like a triangle with the verticle line. Disregard this line.

Rik

"Some blades are lower than the spine. -- Low Withers
Some blades are very level with the spine -- Level Withers"

The position of the top of the shoulder blade often does coincide with the level of the spine, and I think this is the reason why the tip of the shoulder blade has mistakenly been assumed to be the withers by some. 

The withers is actually the spinous processes of the thoracic vertebrae.  A normal canid spine has a dip after the withers where the processes change direction and become shorter, follwed by a slight rise over the loin, as the spine follows the normal S shape.

High withers, I think has become  desirable in the showring but isn't conducive to endurance trotting.  For construction of a trotter par excellence, look at the wolf.

Ibrahim, if you're measurements are from the Doberman photo, I'd say that they are probably underestimating the actual forehand angulation (shoulder/upper arm joint) if you are basing this on the drawn lines. 

THe dog appears to have quite steep shoulder and UA, much steeper than depicted by the lines.  For example, the upper arm doesn't reach to the point of elbow, nor does a line extended from it.

That brings me on to another point.  A mistake in many standards is to ask for the shoulder and upper arm to be of equal length.  If this was the case, the dog would have a short upper arm in the usual showring assessment, as the UA is natually a longer bone by about 15%.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Dog_anatomy_lateral_skeleton_view.jpg

hello pod and sonora, thanks for the input.

Ibrahim, here is the dog without the lines. If you have the software, maybe you can re-position the lines to reflect better what pod explained. Try and imagine the dogs skeleton. It might help to look at the bones here. www.pedigreedatabase.com/german_shepherd_dog/structure_information/2.html  The bones are the humerus (11), usually called upper arm, and the blade (10).

The angle is  that made where these bones connect at the joint.