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by Kimmelot on 03 September 2010 - 15:09
Dooberdoodle- I seen the Cesar show with the greyhound mix where the dog was so terrified it wouldnt even eat while at his bootcamp.I wonder about some dogs like that , if they are mentaly damaged like a autistic child. After the boot camp there was a remarkable change in the dog for the owner, and that is what really matters. The dog was flooded by popping balloons, and made to swim ( I think the dogs name was baby) where her tail had no choice but to be arrect for a long time ( he says to force her to not tuck the tail and there by forcing confidence). The owner was then able to open and close kitchen cabets without making the dog bolt, which changed there lives..
As for Victoria's methods.. the time out is the most rediculous thing for barking.. I watched on couple , a man and woman, and she just ripped into the husband and belittled him because he didn't believe that a time out was making the dogs stop barking. There was obvious stress in the human relationship of husband and wife, and it put the hair up on the back of my neck when Victoria put a larger wedge inbetween them. Removing a dog from the situation has not taught them anything. Sure you can refocus or distract the dog , another technique she uses, but if you are not there to stop it the dog will just keep on yapping. No amount of time outs is going to stop that.
I myself prefer Cesar's ways, but I was the first dog Whisper.. lol jk thats just my name don't wear it out.
by Sunsilver on 03 September 2010 - 16:09
He often has the owner[s] leash the dog to themselves to establish dominance, and get control of the dog.
I like him. Some feel he leans a bit too much towards Kohler, but I have yet to see anything that I would say was abusive. He does stress that you have to be consistent, and that the dog needs regular exercise. Dogs aren't to be on the furniture or on beds, as this makes them think they are higher in the pack order than they actually are (or should be.) Some may disagree with that, but OTOH, allowing dogs to do this usually goes hand-in-hand with treating the dog like it's a child. And I've seen far too many spoiled rotten mutts who will get possessive of their favourite spot on the sofa, and defend it with their teeth.
And when and by whom was it decided that alpha rolls don't work? I've seen them work wonders! It's just that like anything, they can be abused/over used. Once you establish your dominance and get a dog's respect, it should NOT be necessary to constantly repeat the alpha roll.
Anyone else watch Brad? What's the general opinion of him and his methods?
by GSDguy08 on 03 September 2010 - 16:09
by beast on 03 September 2010 - 16:09
I agree with most of what you've said Doberdoodle. Both of these losers are a real discredit to dog training. The only true benefit they provide to the public, would be awareness. That in itself is very arguable.
Out of the two of them, I have a special type of hatred for CM. He has done NOTHING for dogs other then propagate ridiculous, unfounded theories on canine behavior. And people believe him!? As if he is some kind of canine God!? Atrocity!
There is a thread on another forum about CM this morning. I just about gagged while reading some of the responses praising him. These people are so brainwashed/ignorant it's pathetic, sad and hilarious all at the same time.
Why is CM famous?
I blame the egotism, arrogance and sadism that seems to be inherent (and unchecked) in many of us. It's unfortunate, but I believe he is famous because his methods often guise other issues as "results". People can't see past what's right in front of them. They only see what matters to them, instead of the whole dog......
We're a species driven on results and success, with little regard as to HOW or WHY the process works.
Perhaps people are too simple to care beyond themselves.
by SitasMom on 03 September 2010 - 16:09
by beast on 03 September 2010 - 16:09
BP is IMO much worse then CM. He is the bottom of the barrel...
I would sing the praises of CM from the highest peak of the tallest Mountain before willingly sitting through a BP seminar/TV show/training class.
by Ace952 on 03 September 2010 - 16:09
I prefer Cesar. I will say that his methods have worked for me spot on. I think people hate him b/c he is a immigrant who doesn't have the degrees and all and people don't like his methods despite them working.
I think I messed up calling them both trainers. Victoria is a trainer while Millan openly admits that he is not a trainer but a behaviorist. I think both deal with different cases/types of dogs. Victoria doesn't deal with aggressive dogs while cesar does. So I can see how the approach can be different for both people..
I think saying that he isn't doing anyting for dogs is nuts. Hey the guy helps educate people (who many of the time clearly need training) and hat in turn helps the dogs. The same goes with Victoria. Anytime a person can get on tv and have people really sit down and say "hey it is me and not the dog, i need to change my ways.", then to me they are doing their job.
With all that said, I don't think I want my GSD to be as Cesar has his dogs, totally submissive. I think his and Victorias ways are good if you have a dog as a pet especially if you have other family memebers and people over at your house. Now if you ahve a working dog, K9 or PPD...that level of submission may not work the best. I may be wrong though so someone please chime in on it.
I see that dog training methods vary from person to person and there will never be a uniform code on it. I think in the end you have to look at the results that have come from it and see if the owners have changed.
@Sunsilver...I have heard good things about Brad but I don't know if his show comes on here in the states. I may have to find it online or worst case, youttube.
by Sunsilver on 03 September 2010 - 16:09
He insists people treat dogs as dogs and not as fur-clad children or stuffed couch ornaments. He gets them to see that the dogs has needs such as exercise and mental stimulation, and a tired, happy dog isn't going to be tearing the house apart. He also finds ways to change the attitudes of those who deny the dog is a problem. I especially loved the episode where he had the husband take on the role of the wife: dealing with a constantly barking dog, a toddler, household chores, phone ringing, etc. etc.
The husband realized VERY quickly why the wife was so frustrated by the dog!
by Doberdoodle on 03 September 2010 - 17:09
RE: Sunsilver, why do alpha rolls not work. It's generally accepted that they are outmoded and not based on anything scientifically sound- in wolf behavior and dog behavior, the roll is offered, never forced. The struggles for dominance in wolf behavior are not like what people may think, they do not roll eachother or pin eachother. This technique can 1) Get an owner bit trying to pin their dog down!! or 2) Seemingly calm the dog down momentarily, but then when the dog gets back up they are even more frustrated than before, and possibly the dog may learn to struggle harder next time, so in effect they may be training their dog to expect a fight. This may be why the Milan show has a disclaimer at the bottom of don't try this at home. They can get mauled trying to flip a dog then say they saw it on tv!
by Sunsilver on 03 September 2010 - 17:09
Example: I was bringing home a 3 year old GSD, that was new to me. He'd spent most of his life on a chain, and had little training. I stopped to show him off to a friend. She gave him a toy. When I tried to take the toy from him, he challenege me. I pinned him (carefully, to make sure I didn't get bitten) and took it away from him. He has never growled at me since.
Second example, from 2 weekends ago. A lady had a dog that would lunge and bark at other dogs and people. The trainer explained to her that the dog was calling the shots (oh, I have to protect my owner!) and she needed to make him realized she didn't need his protection, unless she gave him the okay. The trainer told him to roll him and pin him, and do it like she REALLY meant it, using a loud, snarly voice.
Later in the day, the dog lunged at me and my year old pup. She pinned it, and kept it down until it showed submission.
A few minutes later, I walked by again, and she asked me to get close enough to test her dog. He looked at me and my dog, obvioulsy wanting to lunge again. Then he looked at his owner, and she told him very firmly, "NO!" He listened.
I know this is considered old fashioned and out of date... SO WHAT??? IT WORKED!
How would you stop a large dog (in the 80 to 100 lb., range, large enough to pull the average person off their feet) that wanted to lunge at passersby?
Seriously, I'd like some input here. A friend of mine had this same problem with her 130 lb. Shiloh shepherd. Some said, "Don't correct the dog, he will just associate the punishment with the presence of the other dog, and it will get worse." Others advised her to buy a shock collar.
What method would you use?
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