Calm bites on the sleeve? - Page 2

I am the last person to deny the validity of so-called Just So stories about evolutionary (or, in the case of dogs, breeding) purposes.  But in the discussion of nature versus nurture, genetics versus training, we have to avoid black and white thinking (gripping livestock versus tearing prey).  Dogs are not robots.  A good dog (consider the versatile English Shepherd) can grip a ewe gently and can also fight off predators with the biting style needed.  Some dogs have indeed been selectively bred for "calm full grips" (GSDs) or "bulldog grips" (pitbulls) -- so they are likely to bite in their own way whatever the needs of the situation -- but many good dogs can switch.  Wolves do tend to "slash and run" until they have what feels like a death grip -- then they hold and shake -- as this is better for long term survival if you will have to fight and live and fight and live... Yet read Jack London's accounts of wolfdogs and dogs fighting -- the dogs who gripped like shepherds and bulldogs were usually beaten BUT when they were VERY powerful their calm holding grip prevailed and they won...and lived to fight again.

If a police dog has an armed man as a teammate, a holding grip is probably best.  But if he had to take on the assailant alone, his hold makes him very, very vulnerable -- think of the many stories of armed criminals shooting police dogs who have them by the arm or leg -- UNLESS his grip is so crushing that it wins outright.   

SchH training is not precisely identical to police dog training.  In the latter, the dog needs to be taught (or just allowed?) to fight more intelligently and flexibly.

 Herding sheep with GSDs is such a minimal amount of dogs that do I suppose, so in that matter a calm bite isn´t needed and needs to be breed for and was the SCH test really designed for selecting suitable herdingdogs?

Schutzhund was designed as a breed suitability test for the German Shepherd Dog.
von Stephanitz makes clear that his dog is first, and foremost, a herding dog, in his book.

If a police dog has an armed man as a teammate, a holding grip is probably best. But if he had to take on the assailant alone, his hold makes him very, very vulnerable -- think of the many stories of armed criminals shooting police dogs who have them by the arm or leg -- UNLESS his grip is so crushing that it wins outright.

Sorry, but this doesn't make sense to me. Are you saying the dog will change it's tactics? 

 I will say again grips are genetic.  My dog will bite a decoy in a full suit, sleeve or hidden sleeve the exact same way  he bites a suspect on the street.  it is full, hard and crushing due to his genetics.  The only difference I have seen is that my dog is slower to out on an actively combative  suspect.  If my dog is kicked or punched, he will be not want to out until he feels the fight is over and he has won.  Of course he has to out when I say it's over.  I can see the difference in his intensity, focus and desire to fight when he is engaging a suspect that has actively fought him and me.  Regardless of the situation the bite is pretty much the same, it just hurts more when the "decoy" isn't wearing any equipment.

JMO FWIW,

Jim

Having done herding with almost all of the Malinois I've done bitework with, I have not seen any coorelation between how the dog bites/grips, and how it herds.  Or nips/bites an ewe. 

The German style herding involved taking a full-mouth, firm grip of the sheep's rear leg, above the knee, nose-in to prevent damage to the udders.  No nipping or biting.

In other words, the dog was supposed to grip the sheep's leg exactly as he is supposed to grip the sleeve.

 The grip was OK on this dog, not entirely full in the first driving phase, firstly a bit thin on the couragetest but the dog came pretty fast so it could just have bounced back a bit on the helper with his chest(maybe that´s why he only got 86 points?) he also readjusted to a deeper bite quickly. But it´s the shaking I think about most, why some other dogs just holds while this dog took a little longer and seemed to be a bit more fighting the helper, is it a sign of a dog with  more fightingdrive compared to those dogs that holds still and are a bit more quicker to out, or are the more calmer and robotic dog just doing what it´s been trained to do and not so much about genetics. It seems the holding still dogs get´s higer points even if the total picture isn´t directly more impressive

Practicaly no GSDs are used for herding as I said, so having a herding dog "bite" in mind seems a bit unnecessary.

I'm not arguing that its necessary.

I'm explaining where it came from.

I'd be all for removing it from the Schutzhund rules and replacing it with something that better tests the GSD for modern purposes.

Though herding is not a common practice, GSD's still do it.

Nice thread by the way.

Well like I said earlier, it is hard to read over a computer. Sometimes a dog high in defense or fight will be harder to come off the helper. Outs become a problem. Like Jim said, his dog is harder to out hen he is actually on the street.