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by TessJ10 on 16 July 2010 - 12:07
Good comments on here.
Jagenstadt, your ideals are great, and I'd agree with you 100% if there were no such thing as buying titles in Germany. There are titled dogs who don't know what platz means. So I guess you're right, if you're in Germany, there are no excuses for not getting your dog titled, and yes, it can be quite expensive.
by Jagenstadt on 16 July 2010 - 13:07
"Jagenstadt, your ideals are great, and I'd agree with you 100% if there were no such thing as buying titles in Germany. There are titled dogs who don't know what platz means. "
Why would any knowledgeable and reputable breeder NOT go to see the dog they are intending on purchasing for their breeding program in person?
The dog must be seen working in all 3 phases, the dogs anatomy and movement must be seen and the breeder that is considering purchasing the dog must hang out with the dog in a natural environment to get an idea of temperament and personality.
It all goes back to what I've already said.
If you do not have the time, money or inclination to see a dog that you are considering purchasing or using in your breeding program in person then you shouldn't be breeding.
There would never be an opportunity for a dog with a "paper title" to even make it to your kennel if you have done your due diligence.
Once again, reasoning such as this is only an excuse.
Why would any knowledgeable and reputable breeder NOT go to see the dog they are intending on purchasing for their breeding program in person?
The dog must be seen working in all 3 phases, the dogs anatomy and movement must be seen and the breeder that is considering purchasing the dog must hang out with the dog in a natural environment to get an idea of temperament and personality.
It all goes back to what I've already said.
If you do not have the time, money or inclination to see a dog that you are considering purchasing or using in your breeding program in person then you shouldn't be breeding.
There would never be an opportunity for a dog with a "paper title" to even make it to your kennel if you have done your due diligence.
Once again, reasoning such as this is only an excuse.
by DebiSue on 16 July 2010 - 13:07
Sometimes you want to know if the bitch can produce before spending all that time and money titling her If you are serious about improving the breed.
by GSDguy08 on 16 July 2010 - 13:07
There are no excuses for not getting your dog titled?
I highly disagree with that comment.. My work schedule for example makes it where I can't even go to a SchH club because I always work when the one here meets. So I work my dog with a police dog trainer, and he thrives doing it. Also to say that, not everyone has a SchH club near them. So if I can't go to a SchH club because of my schedule, should I pay someone else to title him? What do I learn from paying someone else?
Saying only titled dogs should be bred......well......I've seen a lot of titled dogs who were crap, and some of the best dogs I've seen came from untitled dogs. There are quite a few titled dogs who never should have been bred. I know the working ability of my dog, I know the good traits, the bad traits, and I know everything about him. Of course that doesn't mean I'll breed him though.
Jagenstadt, the AKC will never care if your dogs are titled or not, they're interested in one thing......money.... Look on puppyfind.com or any other site advertising puppies and see how many there are......do you think they care?
by Jagenstadt on 16 July 2010 - 14:07
"Sometimes you want to know if the bitch can produce before spending all that time and money titling her If you are serious about improving the breed."
I would think that ALL times we would like to know what a bitch would produce before spending the time and money to title them. If you take the short-cut and skip the prerequisites then what indication do you have that the bitch is even breed worthy to begin with? It's all part of the process, educating a dog or a child for that matter takes time and money. Not all dogs go on to become champions or top producers just as all children do not go on to be successful in their lives and chosen careers, it's all part of the process and in the end we hope for the best.
"My work schedule for example makes it where I can't even go to a SchH club because I always work when the one here meets. So I work my dog with a police dog trainer, and he thrives doing it. Also to say that, not everyone has a SchH club near them. So if I can't go to a SchH club because of my schedule, should I pay someone else to title him? What do I learn from paying someone else?"
The problems you have with time restraints, distance to clubs etc. are not unique to you. Many others have the same problems here in the states, in fact I'd venture to guess that MOST have these same problems. If you do not have the time to put foundation training on your puppy for 14 months or so (which will give you a first hand indication of the dogs strengths and weakness) then how would you have the time to properly whelp, socialize and raise a litter?
I'm sorry, I'm not buying it. I have time restraints due to my work and family responsibilities just like most other people do but I will make the time to put foundation training on the puppies I'm growing out and I will then spend the money to send them to reputable trainers to be finished. If I see anatomical flaws, or lack of good working drives in any of the pups that I’m growing out and considering for titles then it's real simple, they are placed in pet/companion homes. There are many more failures then successes, it's part of the process. If it was easy to do "The Right Way" then everyone would be doing it.
If you want to "Learn" then make the sacrifices that are necessary to do so. If you want to title, then make the time to do so or spend the money to have it done by a professional. Not “learning anything” is bogus, it is just an excuse like some of the other reasons you have mentioned. These are just my feelings, please do not take them as a personal attack on you or your beliefs, your entitled to have your own just like everyone else is.
"Saying only titled dogs should be bred......well......I've seen a lot of titled dogs who were crap, and some of the best dogs I've seen came from untitled dogs. There are quite a few titled dogs who never should have been bred. I know the working ability of my dog, I know the good traits, the bad traits, and I know everything about him. Of course that doesn't mean I'll breed him though."
So it's real simple, don't use the many titled dogs that you have seen that were crap. It's a shame that some of the best dogs you have seen were not titled, that's no ones fault but the owners of the dogs. The owner has a responsibility to see that a good representative of the breed get's their titles and breed survey, shame on them if they haven't, no excuses. I would hope that you DO know the strengths and weaknesses of your dog, nothing less should be expected, especially if you are serious about the breed. With regards to breeding, If you have no intentions of breeding then it really doesn't matter.
"Jagenstadt, the AKC will never care if your dogs are titled or not, they're interested in o
I would think that ALL times we would like to know what a bitch would produce before spending the time and money to title them. If you take the short-cut and skip the prerequisites then what indication do you have that the bitch is even breed worthy to begin with? It's all part of the process, educating a dog or a child for that matter takes time and money. Not all dogs go on to become champions or top producers just as all children do not go on to be successful in their lives and chosen careers, it's all part of the process and in the end we hope for the best.
"My work schedule for example makes it where I can't even go to a SchH club because I always work when the one here meets. So I work my dog with a police dog trainer, and he thrives doing it. Also to say that, not everyone has a SchH club near them. So if I can't go to a SchH club because of my schedule, should I pay someone else to title him? What do I learn from paying someone else?"
The problems you have with time restraints, distance to clubs etc. are not unique to you. Many others have the same problems here in the states, in fact I'd venture to guess that MOST have these same problems. If you do not have the time to put foundation training on your puppy for 14 months or so (which will give you a first hand indication of the dogs strengths and weakness) then how would you have the time to properly whelp, socialize and raise a litter?
I'm sorry, I'm not buying it. I have time restraints due to my work and family responsibilities just like most other people do but I will make the time to put foundation training on the puppies I'm growing out and I will then spend the money to send them to reputable trainers to be finished. If I see anatomical flaws, or lack of good working drives in any of the pups that I’m growing out and considering for titles then it's real simple, they are placed in pet/companion homes. There are many more failures then successes, it's part of the process. If it was easy to do "The Right Way" then everyone would be doing it.
If you want to "Learn" then make the sacrifices that are necessary to do so. If you want to title, then make the time to do so or spend the money to have it done by a professional. Not “learning anything” is bogus, it is just an excuse like some of the other reasons you have mentioned. These are just my feelings, please do not take them as a personal attack on you or your beliefs, your entitled to have your own just like everyone else is.
"Saying only titled dogs should be bred......well......I've seen a lot of titled dogs who were crap, and some of the best dogs I've seen came from untitled dogs. There are quite a few titled dogs who never should have been bred. I know the working ability of my dog, I know the good traits, the bad traits, and I know everything about him. Of course that doesn't mean I'll breed him though."
So it's real simple, don't use the many titled dogs that you have seen that were crap. It's a shame that some of the best dogs you have seen were not titled, that's no ones fault but the owners of the dogs. The owner has a responsibility to see that a good representative of the breed get's their titles and breed survey, shame on them if they haven't, no excuses. I would hope that you DO know the strengths and weaknesses of your dog, nothing less should be expected, especially if you are serious about the breed. With regards to breeding, If you have no intentions of breeding then it really doesn't matter.
"Jagenstadt, the AKC will never care if your dogs are titled or not, they're interested in o
by Jagenstadt on 16 July 2010 - 14:07
"Jagenstadt, the AKC will never care if your dogs are titled or not, they're interested in one thing......money.... Look on puppyfind.com or any other site advertising puppies and see how many there are......do you think they care?"
No kidding, your preaching to the choir, that's why it's so important that "Reputable Breeders" in the U.S. adhere to the standards and police themselves and do the right thing, there are no checks and balances in place other then our own standards.
It's like the long running slogan for Hebrew National Hot Dogs.
"We answer to a higher authority"
Do the breeders here in the States that operate without checks and balances think this way?????
In the end we all must follow whatever our conscience tells us to follow, everyone is entitled to their opinions, some are more passionate about certain things than others.
I can not change the thought process of others, I can only hope to open some eyes by presenting my thoughts and feelings on a subject.
I'm not trying to come off like "Mr. Perfect"
Believe me, I have made some painful and costly mistakes myself in the past but I'll always do whatever is necessary to try to never repeat them.
I wish you all happy training and breeding and nothing but success with your future endeavors!
Warm regards,
Andrew
No kidding, your preaching to the choir, that's why it's so important that "Reputable Breeders" in the U.S. adhere to the standards and police themselves and do the right thing, there are no checks and balances in place other then our own standards.
It's like the long running slogan for Hebrew National Hot Dogs.
"We answer to a higher authority"
Do the breeders here in the States that operate without checks and balances think this way?????
In the end we all must follow whatever our conscience tells us to follow, everyone is entitled to their opinions, some are more passionate about certain things than others.
I can not change the thought process of others, I can only hope to open some eyes by presenting my thoughts and feelings on a subject.
I'm not trying to come off like "Mr. Perfect"
Believe me, I have made some painful and costly mistakes myself in the past but I'll always do whatever is necessary to try to never repeat them.
I wish you all happy training and breeding and nothing but success with your future endeavors!
Warm regards,
Andrew
by Adreya on 16 July 2010 - 14:07
Here is a quote from Max v Stephanitz you may want to think about:
“Trials always remain trials, they can never be completely like real life, same as the exercise can never be equal to war. But we can all recognize if the leader and his troops are ready for the real thing, and so it is for trials.
It is the responsibility of the judges to conclude based on the exercises and the way in which they were solved if the dog is suited for work. Of course, the mistakes of the handler and of the training must be taken into account. Such a judgment about the suitability for work is useful for the breeding effort, but you cannot demand more from a trial otherwise it will become a goal in itself, a sport, and will harm instead of being useful to the breeding effort.
We must realize that we do not breed and work for exhibitions or trials but for our breed and to serve the general public (common good). Trial artists do not serve this purpose anymore than empty exhibition winners, and performance trials are to real work as a school exam is to real life as many pupils will fail in real life that excelled in school exams and had an excellent final report.”
Here’s a true story I want to add to what Max said. I live smack dab in the middle of cattle country where small ranches are over 200 acres, and folks out here rely on their dogs as much as ranch hands to work the livestock. Most ranchers have dogs that are mixes of Border Collies and Heelers (Australian Cattle Dogs), but a few of us have Pyrs and GSDs. However, we choose GSDs that come from working ranch dogs that we’ve admired at cattle auctions and rodeos not based on “titles” but on true working ability. In fact, schutzhund trained dogs are as much of a joke out here as poodles, and here’s why:
A few years ago when we were in the middle of a drought and cattle were bone thin and dying in the pastures, a few ranchers began selling off sections of land to developers to build 2 acre “ranchettes” for city folk who wanted to be out in the country. The people who bought the houses were mostly yuppies with brand new SUVs and high dollar dogs kept in shiny new chain link kennels that were more status symbols than anything else. Well, one morning when I was at the feed store, one of those shiny SUVs pulls up with a sable GSD in the back, and all the old men sitting in the feed store telling jokes and wasting time as is their custom, stop talking to stare at the stranger.
Let me take a minute to describe the setting for you. This is a rural feed store that’s been there at least 50 or 60 years. It’s old and run down, and inside there are rickety chairs where all the old men sit and gab, and drink coffee, and chew tobacco. Along with the men, there are always half a dozen ranch dogs sprawled about licking themselves or snapping at flies in a good natured dog way. So naturally, when a stranger pulled up, all eyes turned to the newcomer and his SUV with a GSD inside spinning, barking, and slinging saliva onto the windows whenever someone walked by. Most of the men laughed and shook their heads, but a few asked out loud, “what the hell kind of “coon” eyed crazy dog does that man have?” referring to the lighter circles around the eyes of the dark sable GSD.
Being a GSD person, after I pay for some salt block and sweet feed, I ask the newcomer about his dog. Eager to impress the “hicks” with his excellent taste in dogs, the man proudly informs us his dog is an imported working dog with schutzhund3, ipo3, blah, blah, blah titles out of blah, blah, blah titled parents. Trying to look impressed I smile and call my dog, who was enjoying a belly rub from one of the ranch kids playing with chicks from the brooder, then walk out to my truck. As we pass the shiny SUV...
“Trials always remain trials, they can never be completely like real life, same as the exercise can never be equal to war. But we can all recognize if the leader and his troops are ready for the real thing, and so it is for trials.
It is the responsibility of the judges to conclude based on the exercises and the way in which they were solved if the dog is suited for work. Of course, the mistakes of the handler and of the training must be taken into account. Such a judgment about the suitability for work is useful for the breeding effort, but you cannot demand more from a trial otherwise it will become a goal in itself, a sport, and will harm instead of being useful to the breeding effort.
We must realize that we do not breed and work for exhibitions or trials but for our breed and to serve the general public (common good). Trial artists do not serve this purpose anymore than empty exhibition winners, and performance trials are to real work as a school exam is to real life as many pupils will fail in real life that excelled in school exams and had an excellent final report.”
Here’s a true story I want to add to what Max said. I live smack dab in the middle of cattle country where small ranches are over 200 acres, and folks out here rely on their dogs as much as ranch hands to work the livestock. Most ranchers have dogs that are mixes of Border Collies and Heelers (Australian Cattle Dogs), but a few of us have Pyrs and GSDs. However, we choose GSDs that come from working ranch dogs that we’ve admired at cattle auctions and rodeos not based on “titles” but on true working ability. In fact, schutzhund trained dogs are as much of a joke out here as poodles, and here’s why:
A few years ago when we were in the middle of a drought and cattle were bone thin and dying in the pastures, a few ranchers began selling off sections of land to developers to build 2 acre “ranchettes” for city folk who wanted to be out in the country. The people who bought the houses were mostly yuppies with brand new SUVs and high dollar dogs kept in shiny new chain link kennels that were more status symbols than anything else. Well, one morning when I was at the feed store, one of those shiny SUVs pulls up with a sable GSD in the back, and all the old men sitting in the feed store telling jokes and wasting time as is their custom, stop talking to stare at the stranger.
Let me take a minute to describe the setting for you. This is a rural feed store that’s been there at least 50 or 60 years. It’s old and run down, and inside there are rickety chairs where all the old men sit and gab, and drink coffee, and chew tobacco. Along with the men, there are always half a dozen ranch dogs sprawled about licking themselves or snapping at flies in a good natured dog way. So naturally, when a stranger pulled up, all eyes turned to the newcomer and his SUV with a GSD inside spinning, barking, and slinging saliva onto the windows whenever someone walked by. Most of the men laughed and shook their heads, but a few asked out loud, “what the hell kind of “coon” eyed crazy dog does that man have?” referring to the lighter circles around the eyes of the dark sable GSD.
Being a GSD person, after I pay for some salt block and sweet feed, I ask the newcomer about his dog. Eager to impress the “hicks” with his excellent taste in dogs, the man proudly informs us his dog is an imported working dog with schutzhund3, ipo3, blah, blah, blah titles out of blah, blah, blah titled parents. Trying to look impressed I smile and call my dog, who was enjoying a belly rub from one of the ranch kids playing with chicks from the brooder, then walk out to my truck. As we pass the shiny SUV...
by Adreya on 16 July 2010 - 14:07
continued...
the sable goes into a frenzy that my GSD ignores except for a slight hackle and sniff at the window as if to say, “what a dumbass that guy is.”
Anyway, as I said, the people in the ranchettes kept their dogs mostly in kennels including the sable “working” GSD, but one day the dog got loose and roamed onto a neighboring pasture full of new calves and a couple of mules for protection. As the story was told to me, the dog, finding himself suddenly free, becomes deaf to his owner’s commands as his prey drive kicks in, and he starts chasing calves completely oblivious to the mules. If any of you know mules, what happened next wasn’t pretty. The first kick to the head knocked out the dog’s teeth; the next kick broke his ribs; and the final kick fractured his skull. As far as I know, the man hasn’t bought another titled dog. The last I saw, he had a nice Blue Heeler mix lying on his front lawn, and the shiny kennel was unused and beginning to rust.
the sable goes into a frenzy that my GSD ignores except for a slight hackle and sniff at the window as if to say, “what a dumbass that guy is.”
Anyway, as I said, the people in the ranchettes kept their dogs mostly in kennels including the sable “working” GSD, but one day the dog got loose and roamed onto a neighboring pasture full of new calves and a couple of mules for protection. As the story was told to me, the dog, finding himself suddenly free, becomes deaf to his owner’s commands as his prey drive kicks in, and he starts chasing calves completely oblivious to the mules. If any of you know mules, what happened next wasn’t pretty. The first kick to the head knocked out the dog’s teeth; the next kick broke his ribs; and the final kick fractured his skull. As far as I know, the man hasn’t bought another titled dog. The last I saw, he had a nice Blue Heeler mix lying on his front lawn, and the shiny kennel was unused and beginning to rust.
by beetree on 16 July 2010 - 14:07
Wow, that's some storytelling Adreya! 
by Keith Grossman on 16 July 2010 - 14:07
In a perfect world, Jagenstadt, I agree with you but strict compliance to those requirements is significantly more difficult here in the U.S. than it is in Germany where there is a club in virtually every small town. Also, as others have pointed out, sometimes those titles are not necessarily indicative of an individual's breedworthiness and simply seeing the dog work may or may not tell you what you need to know but it will never tell you as much as having worked with him/her yourself.
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