The origin of the domesticated dog - Page 2

Yes, essentially you are correct Beetree. I want to read more about it as well. Very interesting stuff......but I think that they decided already that this was NOT a hominid, but a relative along the evolutionary path.

Hodie..

  Yes, I took two semesters of Latin, and we saw this in class.. all a long time ago. What use is Latin, by the way? Well, it gives you a good foundation to learn many of the "Romanse" languages, i.e. languages influenced by Latin (most W. European, at one time occupied by Roman forces).  It also gives you a depth of understanding of our own language which I just don't think you can get in any other way.

  At any rate.. I'll find that darned Nat'l Geo picture, here, one of these days. It's so neat! I depicts a gladiatorial game in which there are three players.. One, the "decoy", is blindfolded, stripped down to a loincloth and maybe sandals, and has his one hand tied behind his back. The other hand swings a big club. He is covered in bleeding bite wounds. On the other side is the dog / handler team. The dog is on a long line, so that the handler can pull him back at appropriate times.. probably to miss the swings of the club. This was apparently done as a spectator sport. There may have also been some little documented use of trained dogs for household defense. In those days, the climate was mild in Rome. Most Roman villas had open windows and porticos and doors. The only way to protect from an intruder by way of the entry was to post a dog there, on a short chain. These were the legendary "ban dogs". The floor mosaic which you are probably speaking of is one I've seen from the two towns below Mt Vesuvius.. Herculaneum and I cannot think offhand what the other was called, but it is more famous. Anyway.. I remember seeing a black and white dog, sort of shaggy looking. Might have looked something like a Border Collie. But the one I saw on the decorated urn was really more like a Malinois. Short or smooth coat, uniform tan color, and about the right size and structure.. long tail. Definitely not a molossoid (sp?) dog.

Beetree...

You are right about the hominids. Many, many branches of the tree, running parallel, not serial and linear. In other words, it's not quite like the artist's rendition we've all seen, starting wtih a knuckle waling monkey and finally evolving into an upright walking homo sapiens. Many of the hominid remains being found are not "missing links", but dead ends that sputtered out.

There is another phenomenon in biology / evolution which is VERY interesting, and it addresses some of the look-alike hominid species which were distant cousins, but not directly inline with our ancestry.

This phenomenon is called, "convergent evolution". It explains why an African hyena looks and acts much like a dog, but is actually a weasel.. Or, why there was once a giant, predatory / carnivore kangaroo on the Australian continent.. and also in Australia, was seen the Thylacene.. the so called "Tasmanian tiger" or "wolf", which was actually found at one time all over Australia (not just Tasmania), and was a marsupial, just like all species of kangaroos, alive and extinct. The thylacine was a very successful hunter, able to catch a wide variety of prey with it's gaping jaws, and able to stay doggedly on the trail until it exhausted it's quarry. It was not swift, nor was it graceful.. It had a lumbering gait. But it simply wore it's quarry down. These traits, and it's general behaviors, are in many ways dog like.. It gets it's name by the long tail, cat like hindquarters and rump, and especially it's camoflage stripes. But if you watch the remaining footage of the last ones kept in zoos, you would have to say that it is at least equally dog like.

The point being that nature abhors a vacuum and fills all available niches with some form of life, adapted in form and function (as well as instinct and behavior) to exploit that niche. As some of the old breeders used to say about our dogs, etc.. "Form follows function". It is no different in nature. So, yes.. We will see convergent evolution in completely different species and genuses. I do think that it is quite posible that there could be (or could have been) parallel lines of evolution in hominids (walking upright, tool making, showing signs of culture and language), and also parallel lines of evolution in canids (so that they are domesticated as partners of humans), originating with different subspecies of wolf. Now, those wolves could have common roots, way back in time, when the continents and land masses were one, or had bridges between.

It is also quite possible that there was only one domestic wolf / dog to begin with, which threw many variations of itself, in different environments. Dogs do seem to have that gift.. One of the most remarkably adaptive and variable of all creatures.
As time goes on, we will learn more, and it will be fun to follow the story, as it unfolds..

Oh, yes.. the two towns wiped out by Mt Vesuvius were Herculaneum and Pompeii. How could I forget? Senior moment, I guess... LOL

Yes, 79AD, Vesuvius erupted and wiped out both Pompeii and Herculaneum. Here is one of the mosiacs I was talking about. There are others. The Romans created some very beautiful ones. This particular one below is at the door leading into the house main hallway, guarding the entrance.

I agree about the importance of Latin and studying languages in general. Sadly, Americans are too arrogant often and think English is the only language of the world, when, in fact, it is not.

Do find that other photo when you have time DDR. I would like to see it. I will keep looking as well through my lecture notes.

That's the one! That's the picture I remember seeing!
Rome probably served as sort of a melting pot, moving different kinds of dogs across various parts of their empire. This could have been one of many kinds of dogs.. maybe even a type of sheepherding dog or Caucasian mastiff.. If we only knew the size..
If I ever find that page, again, I'm definitely going to scan it immediately, and post it on this blog.

I know about the politics involved in scientific as well as medical "studies" and experiments. I don't see how anyone could say that these findings are "proof" of anything. They raise more valid questions and lead us closer to the truth but anything touched by the hand of man is going to be skewed. As a wise man once said "trust but verify" !!! LOL 

 DDR,

Is this the vase you were talking about? It is Etruscan and  from Caere (ca 525 BC). Supposedly it shows Heracles presenting Cerberus (the dog) to King Eurystheus. The vase is in the Louve.....

 DDR,

How about this one from the Tomb of the Augurs.......an Etruscan wall mural.

Hodie,

  This is incredibly beautiful! Thank you SO much for sending that! My family and I were just talking about the classics of Homer. We saw an advert for "Clash of the Titans", the movie. I loved that whole period, read the Iliad and the Odyssey of Homer over and over.. many years ago. At one time I used the kennel name: "Vom Cerberus Höhle".. "Cerberus's den".

  No, this is NOT the one I had in mind.

  The Etruscans were absolutely savage people, in a civilized kind of way. They are the ancestors to the Romans, to my understanding. But they were very cruel and loved bloodsport and war. I did not realize that they were probably the originators of some of the elements of Greek mythology.

  Keep looking, Hodie! Even if you don't find it, I know you will come up with some interesting stuff..

  Now that I think of it, isn't there a set of DVDs or something with all of National Geographic's images on there? This would have been some time in the mid eighties, maybe.. ???