Hypothetical breeding of Asko Lutter to his daughter? - Page 2

 "I think inbreeding is simply a distasteful concept that people can't get past enough to realize it has its purpose in knowledgeable hands."

Sorry, but this is a completely incorrect statement. There are very, very good reasons, all genetic, why neither humans or dogs, or most other species on this planet should not be inbreeding. One need only really study genetics and understand inheritance better. The reason has nothing to do with "distaste". One post above suggested a host of genetic issues and they are correct and there are about 280 more for GSDs alone. There may be a pup born who seems to be a super dog, possessing all the qualities one might hope to achieve. But what will one do with all the pups who show the negatives? Study genetics, human or canine, and you will find a sure answer why this is NOT a good idea. Sure, some do it, but in my opinion, one must possess a cruel and hard heart and be ready to cull. Personally, I don't think it is a good idea even if that rare excellent dog is produced. Why? Because one can find excellent dogs in many litters where genetic problems and bottlenecking are not going to be the rule.

Linebreeding and Inbreeding have brought about breed improvement and upgraded the stock of quite a few breeds. It can make for the elimination of recessive faults and bring about purification of a strain.  These types of breedings have improved the APBT breed for decades.
  It's not the linebred or inbred, gamebred APBT one reads about in horrific stories. Dogs like the bitch below, are excellent examples of what the APBT breed is supposed to be.
www.apbt.online-pedigrees.com/modules.php
Another fact about APBT's such as MIDGE, is they never have health issues. Never an allergy, never a bad hip or elbow.

Linebreeding and inbreeding, seems to have always been taboo in the GSD Breed, yet look at all the health issues. Allergies , bad hips, elbows, etc.
 If inbreeding and linebreeding are so bad, how is it then, one breed based off such breedings is almost health issue free, and the breed which avoided such breedings, is plagued with health issues?

I had a GSD bitch, that I believed was a superior speciman of the breed. I bred her to her son. The breeding, produced a healthy litter of what I percieved to be very nice pups. I raised the litter.  At going on 8 yrs old, not one dog has ever had a health issue.
They can and WILL eat anything you give them.  They are hearty to the extreme. They are still very athletic, and appear to be half their true age.
Am I just lucky?

Inbreeding down a line through either the Sire or the Dam to its own descendants will at some point, be it two or three generations down, reproduce the original ancestor according to a couple of breeders I have talked to.
Or perhaps it was five generations down, or perhaps five was a limit before problems presented themselves with the descendants.  
They had many years of experience doing this but I would have to see it to say I knew for sure.
It's different for every animal, I have seen it done with fowl and pigeons.
If you have the perfect animal.

This is an interesting article on the prepotent producer. If you scroll down, it shows the breeding on the APBT, RED FEATHER. It explains, how they tried to reproduce the son of RED BOY, TRIPLE OTT RED.
www.racingpigeonmall.com/loft/articles/prepotent.html

One of these breeders I mentioned actually was talking about Pit Bulls and game fowl.

Abay,

You are a bull breed guy, so you understand this concept. You are fighting a losing battle.

I recently bought a very inbred malinios. What i got was a working machine, a 55 lb bitch i would have worked on the street, but a bad back. I new the chances so I m not crying about it.

As for an Asko to his daughter, if i was looking for a GSD, I would try it in a heartbeat.

I have no doubt this has been done before. You just wont see it in a pedigree

Hello Abhay,

As you know I feel the same as you do about linebreeding and inbreeding in the APBT.

It has been done successfully in the GSD, but not as successfully as with the APBT...  My guess would be that it is  because they (APBTs)  tend to have a fewer genetic/ health issues than the GSD. So less risk in doubling up on the negatives...

I have been offered a puppy out of this bitch, if she takes...and I am not going to turn it down LOL
I have been trying to buy the bitch herself, but I guess I'll have to settle for one of her puppies :-)

www.pedigreedatabase.com/gsd/pedigree/392903.html

I personally would not inbreed on GSDs, at least not for a long time, if ever.
I have way too little experience and knowledge about the breed and bloodlines to be "experimenting" myself...I'll leave that to the experts ;-)

Stacy

I agree w/Stacy- part of the problem is GSDs simply are not as healthy to begin with. While Hodie says I'm "completely incorrect" LOL, I stick to my story that in KNOWLEDGEABLE hands, inbreeding can bring about positive traits. To the idea that it also has the abilty to bring terrible things, I say DUH.

I have a fairly decent understanding of genetics, thank you, and have actually studied this very topic as it pertained to humans in other cultures. The fact is IT DEPENDS ON THE GENES TO BEGIN WITH. I hate to bring Earth shattering news here, but you can only double/triple/multiply/etc. on genes you already have. If you don't have a gene for hot pink spots,  for example, you can't get it by any type of breeding to non- hot pink spot carrying dogs, regardless of their relation. Now, if you start out w/crap, (which many GSD breeders do, and just cross their fingers and hope it doesn't show up too often) then you exacerbate/exaggerate/perpetuate/magnify/etc. crap when you inbreed. You start out with GOOD, SOLID, HEALTHY, HARDY individuals, who you know very well and have for MANY generations, and you breed them tightly, guess what? You get more of the same.

Because of his hip production and great temperament, I would do a 2-2 breeding on Asko vom Lutter.

Just because an organism does not express a particular gene or set of genes that code for a less than desirable trait, does not mean it is not there and cannot be passed on. Just because an organism is healthy and hardy, also does not mean that it cannot pass on genes that will, at the very least, contribute to some less than desirable outcome.  People often breed these dogs very early. So, by the time EPI, as an example, or other problems show up, it is too late. The dogs were already born. Can one get away with it? Can one see an outstanding example born? Of course, but the odds are not good that all progeny will be so and that means a lot of heartache for someone, unless the breeder is willing to keep the dogs, and, when they show some serious problem, put them down.

As far as the idea that GSDs are not as healthy to begin with, could it be that humans have been messing around for far too long and that far too many had no clue what they really were doing? As well, the breed itself has changed just because of this human intervention. The dogs are larger on the whole than 30 years ago, as an example. That has profound implications for the health of the dog in certain areas. 

In general, it is not a great idea. There are many, many specific examples in various cultures and countries around the world and in humans alone, that demonstrate the great risks.