Phil Behun and /or Slamdunc(Jim) - Page 2

Skimmed throught this and saw my name invoked. I still skim the board but have not posted in awhile.

The question about out and OB is a varied one. In my experience there are several reasons for this.

1) Genetics---The dutch tend to breed "angry" dogs. Angry dogs who take the fight personally generally have a more difficult time with the out.

2) Training style-- Many Dutch trainers not only breed angry genetics, they train with ALOT of frustration. They build upon that anger to creat a very intense dog. They often build a dog to a level where they do some pretty extreme things to then make the dog out.

3) KNPV scoring-- I believe the out is only worth 5 points so not that big a deal and I don't think the formal OB is scored that high. It is more function over form.

4) Ultimate goal of the dog---Most KNPV dogs are trained to be titled then sold as a police dog, then handlers start over. If this is the goal, you only need the dog to perform, not necissarily get on a podium.

Now when they are sold to a department there are other factors.

1) Most police dog handlers are just that. Handlers not trainers.

2) Again with the OB it is more a function over form. Does the dog do it "good enough" doesn't need to be pretty.

3) As for the out, I have an opinion that is not shared much on dog boards. In the real world with real hard dogs, in a real fight, 90% of dogs will not ou on command, they are "hard outetd". I know there are many, many who disagree, but then you have the opinion on what is a "hard or angry dog" is.

Then you have tactical opinions. Most police dog handlers I know do not want a dog to out until they go pull them off. There are differing opinions on this.

Additionally, when dogs get live street bites they tend to then have more difficulty with the out.

In the end when you are talking pure training, on a suit or sleeve, here is my take on things. If the dog was titled it had to know what out was and perform it at some time, so if the dog is not outing during training, it is a training issue.

My 2 cents

Jim
How right you are
i have said it on here several times but no one ever commented on that fact meaning there was no replys to it
 If you do not have an obedient dog then it will not be Obed for Tracking or for Outing in Protection or even outing on a Bite in any situation
 To me Obedience is the key with all dog training get that in a Dog and the rest will be easier and fall into place no matter which venue of work you take a dog into
Steve1

In short, I think the problem was probably more a result of bad handling and bad maintenance and not necessarily bad training.  KNPV is a "certification" and not something you continually do as a  trial like SchH or French Ring.  And like was previously mentioned, after passing, dogs are frequently sold for police or military work.

The "out" has become more important these days in practical police work over years past because of liability.  I remember working one dog years ago from a local department and the handler would praise the dog every time it would "ignore" an out command, actually it was kind of funny.  Nowadays the common phrase is "Stop fighting my dog" and then it's followed by the "out".  Again, mostly for legal reasons.

As far as point deductions go, in SchH if your dog does not out after the 2nd extra command (3rd overall), you are disqualified from the "C" phase and receive a "0" for the entire exercise and are dismissed.  In French Ring, no "out" will just get you a "0" for that particular exercise instead of a possible 30 points.  In the case of the Blind Search with Escort, a 40 point exercise, depending on where the infraction occurs, the exercise may never begin.  For instance, if the dog finds the decoy and bites him in the blind and does not release, the exercise is terminated there with no escort however, if the dog goes into the blind and bites but releases, the decoy will automatically escape and the escort begins before the handler approaches.  The problem with an "out" refusal in French Ring is, since the dog is without a collar, usually an early "no out" will be followed by even longer "no outs" and in many cases it causes future "out" failures in trials.  Most dogs in Ring are outing off of the suit at a very young age as grip quality is not scored like in SchH so as a rule, you don't see failure too often.

Well maybe, not so short.  But yes, "out" is important these days more so than in years past.

I watched a dog only last week in a competition top scores in Tracking, did well in Obed and going well in Protection after the long attack he was told to Out; he did not three times and up went the Judges hand it was over a great pity but thats the way it is It is a job to get an all rounder most have faults somewhere, but i have noticed those Dogs who are with good top scores on Obed usually are quick to obey commands on the Protection, more so than Dogs not so good on Obed, they sometimes do not obey first commands on Protection such as Out
Steve1

The older you get, and the more good dogs you see. The higher
you set your standard. If you have 20, 30, maybe 40 years in on
dogs. And have seen a lot champions. Your standard for a
good dog will be much higher. Or if you happen to see, or  know of
a dog that is by far the best dog out there, with an on/ off switch.
You are very lucky.  Because this will be the dog you will judge
all other dogs by. Most dogs are strong on one end, weak on the other.
The on/off switch come when the sperm hits the egg, Not by trainer
or handler.

Steve wrote-To me Obedience is the key with all dog training get that in a Dog and the rest will be easier and fall into place no matter which venue of work you take a dog into

I agree Steve and that is my point.If you don't even have a good foundation of  obedience on a dog then all other aspects break down. It's like with you building that brick house for Izzy. You wouldn't start with the walls first..you have to have the ground work done first then build on that.



Phil wrote-The "out" has become more important these days in practical police work over years past because of liability

That is what I was thinking. If the bad guy started running...and officer said "Stop or I'll send my dog and he will bite" then the guy was trying to slow down but the officer released the dog.That person gave up and stoped...but if that officer doesn't have a call off...let alone a good out....then I would think that that is a big liability. Or if the perp said that he was bit by the dog but then he gave up and was cooperative but the officer had to tell the dog to out 5 times then flank the dog and choke it out to get it off.....I think a lawyer would have a field day with that one and the perp will walk...or limp the streets again. JMO

Phil- As far as tracking goes with Mals...would you say it is harder for them then a GSD as in when a Mal is panting a lot and the lips kinda curl up it isn't able to get a good sniff in? Just something that I noticed about the dog I am talking about.Also it could ba from serious lack of training and handling skills.Also the Mal use to be someones pet...has more drive then what one would want as a pet but not the super drive for police work.IMO
~L~

Hey Slam wondering if you got my PM.

slamdunc,

what was some good info..................Thank you for sharing!!!

Hey Lav-K9,
I haven't checked my PM's in a while, I'll check now.  Been busy working and training.  I'll PM you later.

Jim

Get a REal Dog,

You said on   3, that in a real fight the dog will not out the first time....I could not agree with you more on this command when a GSD is fighting..........I t will take the trainer or who ever to pull the dog loose...My male will not out on certain things until till i pull him off .........My female is not so angry or intense with her bite, she will out  when she is commanded to or hears the whisle..........