Showline at BSP - Page 2

I saw Ivan's showline at the World's and believe me he was not all that. Never heard about the dog again after the world's. I van just wanted to prove he could do what he did. I will be surprised if he has another showline at the end of his leash in the future, he looked a bit embarrased by the performance the dog did.

I am a firm believer that Showlines are only bred for looks and prancing around a ring, the video above proves nothing has changed and doubt it ever will. I have asked many people why they decided to buy a showline and everyone of them said "because they are beautiful" . so there you go.

Denise

It was not that long ago, well for me because I am getting old, that all the dogs really were pretty much the same, the split came with the Martins - Wienerau and Arminius kennels. So you are talking the change kept going more for show ring in what the 70's?  Currently, there just have been none that can really work.  The structure is out of whack too for jumping - Ivan's dog had that problem, not sure if it was a training problem or structural.  

Its just very, very hard to find one that can work - the pups have to be started right when you do find a prospect.  Amigo Belgier lines can be sharp in temperament - they do not take to heavy handed training.  Any of the showline dogs are now so bred down to just trotting and movement, certain structure, they have left out the temperament for training.

You might be lucky with your pups.  Good luck!

Here are a few more:
Nastor vom Wolfsburger Schloß
Xin vom Hühnegrab
Lasso vom Kampchen
Triumph's Gucci

Nastor and Xin both finished 2nd at BSP I believe. Lasso was an Ulk son who was universal sieger. Had 276 pts at BSP (91 C). Gucci represented Sweden at WUSV. These are very special ones but every year there are 3 or 4 showline dogs at the BSP.

Hard to say what the cause is. Some of it is I believe genetic as the dogs are being bred for 'show'. Some of it is also a lack of interest from the owners and low expectations for the dogs. Others are afraid that if they work them hard it may break teeth etc.
I have a Quenn son who is 3x SchH 3 (SchH3-96,93,97=286, 
SchH3-96-96-94=286, and 
SchH3-88-92-87=267 and FH (96 pts). Wonderful dog that loves to work and excellent for club sport and for me to have fun with. Is V-rated (BSZS). In a lot of stuff that is posted here, there is this endless debate over show vs sport dogs.But GSD breeding is not just show or sport breeding. GSDs are used in search and rescue, home guardians, sheep herding, police work etc. There are plenty of 'showline' dogs that are performing those functions as there are 'working-line' dogs. This may be controversial but breeding dogs just so they can excel in sport is just as bad as breeding them just so they can excel in 'show'. I have seen plenty of 'working-line dogs that cannot work. So many sport dogs lack what it takes to be a strong working GSD as do showline dogs. I have had both of these types in over 45 years of owning shepherds and can vouch for this from personal experience. 

I'm not here to defend show lines b/c I have the same criticims as everyone else, but I will say in the very short time I've been invovled in this breed and this sport, I've seen a good many working line dogs that won't work either, including my own loveable little nervebag!  100% working line with Lord, Fado, Fero, etc in the pedigree.  I think that *any* dog competing in the BSP or the WUSV is a major accomplishment to be proud of.  Just because a dog is a working line does not automatically mean it will make the cut.  It takes superb breeding and some amazing training and handling.  I don't understand all these constant comparisons to the very few that make the podium in these prestigious events.  I'd rather just say kudos to those dogs and handlers, and go work my dogs! If I should ever be so lucky to be half as good...

Liesjers- well said!

Is there any kennel in Germany that try to breed working dogs out of showline dogs? Or at least handle the puppies correctly if they are a working prospect?

Are the dogs you mentioned, such as Triumph's Gucci, unexpectedly produced trying to produce showline dogs?

Why did Bazi Urbecke not qualify for the BSP?

German breeders know it does not work - so they are not going to do it.

Handling pups correctly only works if they have the drives and in showlines those drives are not in the showline dogs. Once in awhile you get one, but it is so very, very rare.

Gucci died last year at 12 - nothing he sired ended up in any regionals or nationals here or abroad for SchH. 

While Bazi is a nice dogs with titles, he does not possess that kind of level of working, meaning there was no point and the value of the dog is breeding on the showlines.  He has had some nice show wins, has more titles than most. 

All titles are not equal and again, are not an apples to apples indicators of the level the dog can work.  Even a SchH3 dog at the WUSV in the top 10 is a far different dog than the bottom 50.  Ditto in the BSP.

Its the difference between luxury cars and and all terrain vehicles.  Different engines, different uses.  While you can drive a luxury car off road if you don't mind tearing it up, you run the risk of ruining it because it is not built for off road.  And you are not going to win a beauty contest with an all terrain vehicle.

I am a working-line enthusiast and have never been impressed (understatement) by "working" showlines.  However I've changed my mind at least that ALL of them don't have the drives and temperament that a working-line person such as myself look for and insist upon.  I have a female show-line and the reason I have this dog is I liked her very strong temperament - sure in the nerves, just a little sharp - yes she will bite you for real - and drives as high as any of my working-line females.  She never received any good training - she got "paper titles" but I could see the temperament and drives that could be titled for sure,  Could she produce the same?  That is the question.  Is it a fluke showline dog who has the nerve, temperament and drives to work?  When you find such an exception then will it reproduce the same in the offspring?  In this case, yes.  My showline female has produced SUPER stable nerves, strong temperaments, and high drives for working.  I have a male out of her, who is getting ready for his Schh1 - he will be out there on the trial field proving that black/red dogs can indeed work, and turn some heads doing it.  Maybe Universal Seiger - maybe showing - but for sure working, because the handler he has on the end of his leash is more interested in working dogs, no matter what color/bloodlines they are.  THIS line of black/reds can do it, and do it really well.

molly
Eichenluft
http://workinggermanshepherd.com

Molly, if this is somehing that is in your showline females bloodline(working strength), then the parents and grandparents of this female should be producing it consistently for it not to be an anomaly. BTW, who did you breed her to, to get this male. Triumphs Gucci was a tremendous dog but he has not produced anything close to him in working. If your showline female has the same genes in her parents as the genes of other weak showline dogs, its hard for me to believe this trait is part of the bloodline. Not questioning your dog's work ability, just the genetic make-up being able to produce it consistently. And fortunately there will be plenty of examples of the dogs in your female's bloodline to factually examine, to see if this female is an exception or this is something the bloodline produces. Just curious.

Its the same with Bazi Urbeke - he is not reproducing himself from what I am hearing. 

Molly - I looked at your site - did not see the female - is she on your site or this one - would love to see her pedigree - I had two that could work - never got to breed them, but their littermates never went on to work either.   Link to her pedigree?