REAL BITE OUT? - Page 2

Olskool, Thanks! 

Hans, your welcome.

GSDsch3v, good point.

Cliford, what can I say...Except to maybe correct your spelling.  It's Jesus Christ.  

Wow, "out means out."  That was a big help.  Perhaps you could elaborate on that statement.  Please, tells us how you would correct this.  I'm sure many of the dogs you have bred are currently working as Police K9's.  Please, let me know how you handle this issue and what you have done when your dogs have had a real bite? 

Two Moons,
The dog came out through the open cage and open front door.  It was an excellent use of the dog and he performed as trained and expected.  My role was to apprehend any subjects that ran.  When you are doing a buy / bust for ounces of coke you generally aren't playing with nice guys. 

Was the suspect found guilty of a crime?   This happened the other day, no one is convicted that quickly.  Medics were called for the guy and he was treated.  He praised me and the dog and told the Narcotics Sgt what a great dog I have.  He was very impressed with the way the dog outed; actually he mentioned it several times.  He made it a point to thank me and the supervisor. 

What's your point with the questions?  Just being philosophical?  I'm in K9, I have a dog as a partner.  A well trained dog.  If I go hands on with someone he goes too.  The guy was ordered to the ground 3 times and ignored my orders and continued to run.  I had to put him on the ground and he was told not to move.  Drug dealing is a risky business. 

I don't think you need a different technique, just a real life training field with real life players, and a Trainer who knows whats needed.

Hey, if you know any of these real life players who are willing to take a bite for real let me know.  I'm having some difficulty finding some out here for training. 



Jim

LOL....
I knew that would bring you back around.

Hey you got the real life guys right there to train on.
And yes, you could get shot dead in a heart beat....

I love your stories.....

My answer to Hans is still more training.

Moons.

For a minute there I thought you were the Internal Affairs Supervisor.   He was actually good with everything and how the dog performed.

Jim

yes go by the bad spiling you now what i mean

Nope,
Just an armchair quarterback.
The muzzle idea makes sense.

In real life every situation is going to be different, it will always be a learning experience.

Moons.

Prager,

First and foremost you have to have control. I want my dog to out no matter what he is shakeing when I say OUT!

I don't train a dog to bite without having Good control. You can not call a bullet back to a gun no more then a dog back from a living animal or human without control.

There is a big difference in the screams of agony then the screams of a padded decoy!

I like Slamdunc's advice and I'm sure he has used it well. I have used some of the same as well as similar techniques in the past and others with good success.

Here is another you may try when training. I use multiple decoys at times to work dogs for sentry work and PPD's. We do not work on the outs on sentry as much but the dog must learn to release at the end of the fight and re-attack a second decoy or the decoy will engauge the dog.

On PPD dogs we use the out -platz on a decoy that freezes before impact to re-enforce control during training.  This is to teach control after the send and without a bite. We also use out-sitz for release of  the decoy after he stops moving, and just that quick another decoy is deployed to refocus the dogs energy.

These can be muzzle attacks alternated with undercover sleeves. It will deffinately make the dog think when you out him if another person is coming his way to be alert to the OUT. Get the new guy that wants to fight.

I think some dogs that are very intense think of the OUT as get ready for the next guy. The main thing is to keep the dog thinking and not to get into a routine. Keep mixing the game up as much as possible. Fine tuning from new experiences also helps keep a dogs attention.

In sport training there are alot of people that train in a routine. Street dogs,Sentry and PPD dogs have to learn there is no routine. It is always changing or he may not be ready when needed.

just my thoughts, mahon

In my exerience, a good tough dog, in a real live fight (suspect activly fighting) the dog is not going to out. They have to be "hard outed".

Once a dog has had this kind of fight, outing becomes a problem throughout the dogs career. Yes you can clean it up in training, but when it comes down to the real deal again. They ain't gonna out.

"Out means out" is a sport trainers and/or training mindset. The real deal is different. I had the same mind set when I was a "sport trainer" before I gained a little more experience in police work.

Now a caveat for the one's who will tell me I am full of it and they have/know all these patrol dogs that out on live bites every time......

1) We may have a different opinion on what a real tough dog is.

2) Remember I said "activly fighting"

I believe every patrol dog should wear an e-collar while on duty. My friend had an equipment vendor custom make a leather collar that enabled the e-collar reciever to be attached and not seen. Great idea that has worked very well for the numerous departments he trains for.

Me personally, if I had a dog out on command with a fighting suspect, I would take a serious look at the dog. But my standards and what I want/expect in a patrol dog are pretty high.

Jim---

I think you and I understand each other......

Mahon,
Interesting ideas, I do like using multiple decoys and we don't do it enough.  You have reminded me to do it in our next training session.

Gard,
I'm with you and I agree. 

Clifford,
That's it?  No advice, no words of wisdom?

Hans,
 If you want to get the dog's adrenaline up on the hidden sleeve; add gun fire.  Have the decoy, handler and an additional cop use blank guns.  I guarantee the addition of gunfire will escalate the aggression in almost all police dogs.  Better yet, if they have access to simunition that will up everyones adrenaline and that will translate right to the dog.  Pm me if you like and I'll offer some more suggestions.

Jim

Hi Jim,  you are very logical in your steps with training, it is clear, cut and dried. IMO the handler and the dog trains their brains in a controlled environment.
Always,
Cee

come on guys,