Working dog question??? - Page 2

 Adi Ibrahimbegovic's answer is verry detailed and I can tell that it comes from a great experience (I am also involved in IPO witch is similar to Shutzhund). I want to specifie that there are also other directions of training for a GSD. I want to draw your attention to Search and Rescue. This is a verry "real life"domain and it is a great thing to do with your dog. I find it mutch more rewarding (for both dog and doghandler) and chalenging too. A rescue dog handler must be verry serious and a real team player. The responsability for the training is huge because somebody's life may depend on it but I must say that the reward for a good job can not be measured by anny means. In rescue work there are also more directions to take: area search, rubble search, tracking, water rescue, avalanche rescue.  If you want to take a look at some photos from this kind of work go to  http://www.arcsromania.com/?page_id=39 witch is a foto galery from a romanian SAR web site. If you like the ideea, I am sure that you can find a SAR team in your area where you can join. Good luck with your dog.

Yes, I know Ace and his owner Charlie/Karoly very well. He was 2nd in the last year's World Championships and he has many accomplishments over the years. He is competing next week at the Worlds too, since he won the WDA Nationals as well as the fellow from Spain that won the whole thing and beat him by a thread.

Oh, yes, with the both membership you also get the Schutzhund magazines, bi-monthly. USA magazine is way better than WDA version, but they try hard too.

Also, your son will be able to compete at the junior level (under 21), with your consent, of course.

Yes, for the most part Schutzhund people are very approachable and friendly welcoming everyone to join the clubs and trial. But, it is a also a very small and tight knit community and alot of people come by a few times are oohing and awwing about what the dogs can do, but quickly drop outo f sight never to be seen again once they realize how much work, blood, sweat, tears, dedication and daily training is required with a working line dog.

Also, a blabbermouth that cusses a lot (that's me!) finds his place very quickly. Open minded, hard working, dedicated, friendly, outgoing folks, that know and appreciate what kind of dog they have (if it's not a working line GSD - it's just a dog/pet!) generally  do great at Schutzhund and have a fun time.

Find the club that is closest to you here: http://germanshepherddog.com/clubs/south_central.htm or here: http://www.gsdca-wda.org/clubs.htm

Looking forward to meeting you, as well, you never know when paths cross. Our Regionals are in February in Austin.

Hello, Joseph, and welcome.  How exciting to be waiting for that first puppy!

Adi's and VomMarischal's responses are great; I add the links below only because you asked for any reading material.

As they said to you, the best way is to join a club and do real training and not "armchair" Schutzhund, but if you do want to read about Schutzhund training while you're waiting for your puppy to grow up, here are two books that I've found helpful:

http://www.amazon.com/Schutzhund-Theory-Training-Methods-reference/dp/0876057318/ref=sr_1_7?ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=1254339516&sr=1-7

http://www.amazon.com/Schutzhund-Obedience-Training-Sheila-Booth/dp/0966302028/ref=sr_1_3?ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=1254339516&sr=1-3

Also while you're waiting, if you go to the Schutzhund USA club link that Adi posted, you can find club trials, seminars, etc. that you can go and watch.

 

Thank you nostress and TessJ10 for your input/recommendations. I will followup on the schutzhund book as I do want to read/learn as much as possible while waiting for the puppy so I am ready (at least somewhat). Any and all books/dvd's etc referrals will be reviewed and most likely purchased.

Thanks again,

Joseph

Well...

If you feel like spending on books and videos, good for you, I'll help.

I probably have about 90% of books ever written on Schutzhund, amazingly I've read them all.

Barwig and Hilliard book she mentioned above is actualy pretty good, despite bing written in 1990, it is still good and relevant.

www.caninetrainingsystems.com (owned by Hilliard) has a series of videos with Ivan Balabanov. They are also good. He does some goofy stuff in them (dancing around the dogs etc... but hey, it works!). I am always cool with a novel, non traditional approach that gives results.

Helmut Raiser's book - Der Schutzhund, translated by Armin Winkler is great too. I like Helmut Raiser a lot, although a lot of people worldwide (mostly showline folks hate his guts). He is a true follower of Max Von Stephanitz and for him it is uncompromising - a GSD has to be, MUST be a working dog, or it's not a GSD.

Who wouldn't like a guy with some impressive moustache and mutton chops?!

I had a priviledge... lol, a priviledge, to see in flesh, in person and up close a VA rated dog, it's a showline title. This dog's stud fee, was like 3500$. Helper was joking we were all underdressed for this dog, maybe we should wear Armani suits and Prada sleeves...

Although, the dog was kind of pretty and he did show some modest ability to work, I dunno, to me he was just a dumb pet, although his purchasing price was in high 6 figures. So, different strokes for different folks.

Anyway, while on the subject on Max Stephanitz. NO German Shepherd owner's bookshelf would be complete without his Book - "The German Shepherd Dog in Word and Picture". One of the best books on the breed, written by the father of the breed himself. Without this man, you wouldn't be able to enjoy your Ace puppy in a few months.

 

 

When you are interested in training for a Regional/ National level not only should you have confidence your dog will pass but comfortable he will perform each excersise and perform it well.  At that level in training it is necessary to shave point costly imperfections in his performance.  Tracking: anything but following the track nearly exactly will cost you points, must have a nearly instant indication of the articles.  OB: straight and quick sits and finishes, nearly instant responses to commands, heeling not only in correct position but also almost constant focus on his handler, quickly retrieveing the dumbell out and back...holding the dumbell calmly.  Protection: clean outs and guards, full grips and excellent control is necessary. 

When I first started in the sport, I'd see top level trainers prepping for a big trial.  Many times I had to look closely to understand why the dog was getting corrected.  Top level trainers have to nit pick for their dog and his performence to be super clean.  Trainers who feel a handler and dog is capable will be harder and more detailed on them than others who are there for the "club level" experience.

Most people are happy if their dog can perform all the necessary tasks and enjoy the lower pressure of club level which is also scored a bit more lenient...some people are not as driven for perfection as others, or their dog or the handler is not capable.  Some people are there for fun, others are driven for a higher level.  It depends on the caliber of dog and it depends on the handlers abilities. 

Adi Ibrahimbegovic,

Thanks again for recommending the reading material. All help is appreciated. I did purchase and am waiting to receive (priority mail) from caninetrainingsystems 2 books which are:

Schutzhund, Theory and training methods (Barwig and Hilliard)
 and
Schutzhund Obedience Training in drive (Booth and Dildei)

I am debating which DVD set is better between about 3 or so different ones as my goal is to get some basic ideas on how to imprint/train a puppy or at least get it ready for training as it grows older. I have seen some really good puppy training videos at various GSD websites and have viewed people training a puppy different ways attempting to get the same results as far as starting the puppy in bitework and that is really interesting I also would like to see something on getting the BH as I believe you had said that is the first obstacle so I would like to know specifically what I would need to train the puppy on as well as what is expected etc.
 
I have been watching several videos online and at various sites including youtube for WUSV and Masters shows and the like and have seen others training their puppy in obedience and bitework but not the tracking??? I wonder why that is? I would like to see the tracking done by various GSD's. Isnt this part of the WUSV trials as well as others?

Anyway I will continue to digest all I can and maybe go to the local club and watch a few times or more without the pup until I get the pup to get an idea what to expect.

GSDfan thank you for the information as I believe that has deepened my knowledge a bit more than I already had and I truly believe I am getting a much better understanding than even a few days ago.

Thanks again everyone for all your help/insight.

 I am really anxious to gain all the (correct) knowledge I can so I can put it to good use once the puppy is received. I am kind of feeling like a kid at Christmas! LOL. Thanks again everyone.

Respectfully,

Joseph

Good luck on your journey, for a learning journey it is.  One thing to keep in mind, be prepared to visit a few different clubs.  Not all clubs are worth joining, not all club training directors mesh with what you expect.  Often the first dog you pick will be one to learn with and a second (or third, fourth, LOL) dog is found that may be more of what fits you and the sport.


Adi, excellent information you gave!  I hope all is well with you. 

I have recently seen some video footage of Ivan Balabanov working Apache do Amper a "showline" GSD in WUSV Schutzhund trials not far in points behind Helmut Raiser who won the event. There were a huge amount of working line dogs behind Ivan's showline which makes me wonder why the general opinion is it's a waste of time to try and work showlines???. 

I am trying to understand if it was Ivan's exceptional training that raised a showline to a high level or is Apache a better dog than the working lines behind it???

Hello Tina, glad to see you. I have been busy for a while being a small business owner etc...

I pretty much "overbonded" with my dog, if that's even possible, now we call him Adi Superglue,. the damn dog won't leave me and shadows me anywhere and everywhere.

Things are good. What I really want to know is how did you bond with the Dutch dog and how is he?

to the other poster:

"which makes me wonder why the general opinion is it's a waste of time to try and work showlines???. " - Well... in GENERAL terms, most of the showline dogs can't do the Schutzhund very well. There are some that do and do it quite and exceptionaly well. Always glad to see one of those, but they are an exception to the rule.

"I am trying to understand if it was Ivan's exceptional training that raised a showline to a high level or is Apache a better dog than the working lines behind it???" - Without knowing the specifics and just speculating, I think it's both. He is an exceptional trainer and a quick, tall, skinny dude who knows how to read and work dogs. Also, it is quite possible Apache is a beter dog than many others who cometed agaist him, why not. But again, it's rather an exception than the rule, there are some Apaches out there, but in general, sweeping with a wide brush stroke - most of them aren't cut for it.

I don't know of any schutzhund trainer, handler, "enthusiast" or whaever you want to call them say - None of the showlines can do Schutzhund". Of course they can, and of course that stement is absolutely not true, it's just not that many of them percentage wise could as the dogs coming from the long line of schutzhund progeny e.g - working dogs.