Breeders that breed with no thought - Page 2

Steve, when I say health issues that would include the joints, LOL! And working dogs do undergo extensive training, under pressure, say for police work, service work, or herding. And yet many of those dogs do not have titles behind their names. I do not disagree that titling your dog is the best way to determine breed worthiness....but it's not the only way. And I would not disqualify or eliminate a potentially great dog from the gene pool just for lack of titles. All I'm saying, in responce to the OP is that each dog should be evaluated on his own merits, & no sweeping generalizations made. Fair enough? jackie harris

Can a dog not be tested using obedience,tracking,protection as a guideline by the breeder  .To what point does it make the dog more qualified if he is scrutinized and graded by a judge on a schutzhund field,the judge and the spectators see only the dog being worked in a trained behavior and know nothing about the total dog, I would think that the breeder having lived with the dog on a daily basis and observing said dog in his natural enviorment would be much more qualified to evaluate his dog. I could watch any dog do a schutzhund routine and have an opinion as to how well I thought he did, but I wouldn't have any idea the quality of the dog overall. Further more,is any sport dog venue a real test of courage for a dog? To participate in a trained routine where the dog is exposed to simulated pressure and pain isn't a real test in my opinion.On the other hand a dog in police or military work where the threat and pain are real when encountering a bad guy is a true test of courage for the dog, It is my opinion that if some of the top sport dogs in any venue were tested in this manner, they might be seen in a different light. I'm not knocking any sport dog venue, I've just wondered how reliable sport dog venues are for evaluating the complete dog, rather then the trainability of the dog ,or the ability of the trainer. I'm not looking for a fight here, just some opinions on breeders and how they evaluate their dogs. I think titles are great for breeders looking to produce puppies for sport venue. Dogs are bred for different  purposes, so there is no one size fits all breeding program.. Clearly the only breeders that are 100% succesfull in their efforts are the ones in it for the money,not the pups they produce.
                                                                                                                      Michael

Michael- many breeders cannot be trusted to be subjective about their own dogs. That's why a judge is needed. Just because a breeder puts to dogs together to make puppies certainly does not make them qualified to decide what dogs are working quality and which are not. I am curious to know how many dogs you titled before becoming disillusioned with schutzhund as a breed test.

Also "good with kids'?! What? Are we breeding golden retrievers? While many GSDs are excellent with children (mine certainly are) they are a working dog, and many working breeds are not always appropriate companions for children.  If a parent wants a no-maintenance buddy for their child, they should not be looking at working breeds.

every breeder who breed their dogs on the simple fact that their  dogs have titles is a shit breeder period.And any one  who thinks a dog can only be measured by a shutzhund title is an idiot and do not know shit about working dogs and i do not care how many dogs you have titled.have a nice one.

Of course there are dog with titles who are not breed quality,and many dogs who are K9s, PSA, etc., who are exceptional for the breed...but don't you think there needs to be a starting point for filtering what works and what doesn't?

Good with children goes to instinct and is related to temperament.  
Any dog who cannot be trusted around humans is of limited use and thats not what the GSD was meant to be.
Training and actually working over time tells you about character and ability.
Time will show health and hard work will show stamina.
Experience over time and situations that arise, how the dog handles and figures out things that were not part of training measure intelligence and perhaps courage.
Day by day in the field or on the street over time you come to know these things first hand.
Obedience and trials show a great deal and are very important but in a controlled environment you don't get the same results as you would on the job.  And it does take time, years.
A breeder by nature of the name implies just that, breeding.   A working dog must really work at a job, day after day and no one can know the dog better than its partner (companion), owner, the one who is there day after day to see every little detail.
It all depends on what you wanna call a working dog, and what you consider work.
Again, training is great and so are titles, but what does the dog know on its own, what does the dog have inside by way of natural instincts, they can be breed out of a dog over time.   An untrained dog thrown into a situation can do what is was bred to do if the instincts are there.
Evaluation takes time and experience, tests by fire.
Not a well performed routine.
Keeping a line down through the generations is knowing and there is no way to do this without the passing of time.
Its romantic nonsense, but I can see a shepherd and his flock and all the things that this life would involve for the shepherds family, life in the field and the life of the dog.   The work, the companionship, and not often but once in a while the dog protecting his world from predator or thief.
The word that hits the nail on the head is (partner) in all things. 
I know many may think I'm full of crap but I look for what the dog has in its heart and mind beyond any training it may have.
I want my dogs to die of old age with several generations beside it, and many years of stories to tell.
To share our lives.

I don't see a problem with breeding the occasional untitled dog... when it comprises the bulk of a breeding program that can indicate a problem, IMO.


Brief Story:

I was curious about pup with good lines on the mother's side, but upon query I learned the father was untitled. Okay, so be it.  But so were his parents... so were -their!- parents. It wasn't till the great-grandparent generation that any show or working titles showed up. A google search of the sire, his parents, and grands -- as well as their kennel names --revealed next to nothing. From a genetic standpoint, the influence of great-grands is so slight as to be negligible. The fact that nothing of note came from the pup's paternal lineage since his father's great-grands... I quickly lost interest and moved on.

Assuming the pup doesn't come from working-proven lines (police, SAR, etc) where the parents fill this role:
I wouldn't be against a dog from one untitled parent if the grands were titled and of proven merit. But a pup from two untitled, non-working parents opens up the question: "What is the breeder using as a measure of their dogs' merits for breedability?" and "Why hasn't the breeder invested in titling their dogs?"

When I see a long history of untitled, non-working dogs, then I get skeptical that perhaps money is the main factor in this breeding, rather than striving to produce a good dog for a functional purpose.

Breeding pets is not something I espouse. Lots of dogs from fine working and titled parents will be pet-quality for some reason or other. Breeding specifically for pet-quality seems the genetic equivolent of being happy with a "C" average. It's not an "A", it's not an "F"; it's just middle-range mediocracy. I don't think any breeder should aim to produce "C" dogs, and if they do, they're just in it for the money.

 

steve...i have to agree with your statement about"ability to overcome stress".perhaps i should have clairified my statement"medical issues",to me ,that would surely include hip/elbow status.after looking at the website mentioned by the original poster,it seems to be a very nice dog for stud,also the guy(akino?) seems to be an extrodinary "bite mechanic",i'll hazard a guess and say offhand that he may know a thing or two about testing/stressing a dog.i've seen his name for years....i'm not here to insight unconstructive argument.....but think about this,pity the poor" trial helper/bite mechanic",who works everyone else's dog,yet no one is available to work his dog at an acceptable level...now that guy has to put his club duties(not to mention paid bite sessions) asside,and possibly travel to get acceptable work on his own dog(time/money)include a family and job and time gets a bit more valuable....true,a good dog should be titled,but surely most(not all) people involved in training dogs have a decent enough eye to recognise a good dog when it's presented before them...the thought that the particular dog on that site for stud is "sitting at the fireplace living a stress free life"to me would be a total and complete waste,and i doubt very seriously that's the case...best of luck in your training...vom ost see,home of"ENZO VOM DUNHILL,A-DINO VOM OST SEE,S-NAVARRE VOM KRAFTWERK,C-DEMERLINA VON SUDLICH PLATZ,EDGE,EIKA,ENKA,E-TRIPA VOM OST SEE

 

I am 110% behind x-rays and medical test and issues when you are choosing to breed your dog.  I'm not saying titles are a bad thing just the opp. but to make that the end all be all for breeding I think is rubbish.

KCzaja, I haven't titled any dogs in Schutzhund as I'm sure you suspect. I'm not sure how you think I am dissillusioned about the sport however. I see the sport for what it is to me, a sport and nothing more. Its a routine the dog has been trained to perform and has performed any number of times. The higher the schutzhund title, the more times he has performed this routine. Do you think that protection work in schutzhund is a real life test of the dogs courage?  I'm sure there are dogs in schutzhund that have the courage and fight drive to perform in an acceptable manner if faced with real life danger and physical pain, I'm also sure that there are equal numbers of these dogs that would leave the field if subjected to the real deal. If in fact this is the case,and in my mind it is, then it is not a reliable test of courage, but a test of the dogs desire to participate in a game where no real possibility of threat and injury exists. I'm not advocating real punishment or injury to any dog, I just don't see it as a real courage test on which to base a breeding. Breeders not being trustworthy about their own dogs is a very true statement, but that carries over to trainers and judges as well, so a title or a good performance alone is not  enough by any means to base a breeding on. Moons said it best and I agree with his views totally, I'm sorry if my opinion rubs you the wrong way, but I believe in what I say and will continue to do so untill someone convinces me differently.BTW at what level of title do you see the dog as breed worthy,1 2 3 also do you consider a non titled bitch that has never been judged on the field to be breedworthy based on the breeders evaluation of her.Just as food for thought is this breeder trustworthy because his stud dog is titled by him or someone else.                    Michael


I also agree with vomostsee's opinion about breeding, I know him personally and can assure you his breeding program is based on betterment of the breed and nothing else.