What is a King Shepherd - Page 2

I said the people aren't athletic and they don't want to exercise two hours a day with their dogs.

But I did suggest that the dogs are not driven.  You really have to admit that if they were real, they'd be competing.

Competitors are more than willing to try dogs who can get the job done better.  Look at the surge of Mals.

PDs would like a dog who could handle the 300 lb drugged up perps.  If a 125 lb dog could do the work, there would be a market for them.

I admire people who have the guts to say screw the standard, I want a big, fluffy dog.  One of the guys at work asked me where he could get a huge gsd, and I recommended a King over a Shiloh, because for the latter you have to trade your first born child. 

But don't try to kid me that your dog is going to beat mine in competition!

Or is there a bet on the table?  :-)

~Buck

Damn near any 3 month old puppy is a speed demon. At three years, I would take Buckos WL GSD over a KS for workability any day. But no one ever claimed those breeds have workability, they are designed to be big, laid back pets. Again, better to have a separate breed than wreak more havoc on the GSD.

..."You really have to admit that if they were real,.." NOT REAL? What do you think they are, made of playdough or something?
I never claimed EITHER of my dogs are "competitors".. but listening to you brag on and on and get all bent out of shape because I happen to have a King Shepherd and appreciate it for it's qualities makes me think maybe you get defensive so easily because you are insecure and have to knock others to make yourself feel better. Grow up.. realize that not everyone needs to have a compeitive nature, not every dog needs to fit YOUR standard. 
The King Shepherd is a nice dog.. if you don't like it, oh well. Get over it. Compete your ass off with your dog... I really don't care what you think of mine.

In my case, I just love the ATHLETICISM of the real gsd, and hate the gallumphy, plodding look of Shilohs and Kings. But to each his own!

Excuse me?

Far left:  Raven, an ISSR Shiloh exhibiting the flying trot:  When was the last time you saw a showline GSD doing this?



From the Shiloh breed standard:

www.shilohshepherds.info/frederickISSDCNational2001.htm

"THE GAIT SHOULD BE CONSIDERED A VERY CRITICAL PART OF THE OVERALL PERFECTION OF THIS BREED. This breed must be observed while the dog is on a loose lead so that the natural gait is evident. The gait is outreaching, elastic, seemingly tireless without effort; smooth, and rhythmic, covering the maximum amount of ground with the minimum amount of steps. At a walk, it covers a great deal of ground with long strides of both hind legs and forelegs. At a trot, it covers still more ground with even longer stride, and moves powerfully but easily with coordination and balance, so that the gait appears to be as the steady motion of a well-lubricated machine. The feet travel close to the ground on both forward reach and backward push. In order to achieve ideal movement of this kind, there must be good muscular development and ligamentation. The hindquarters deliver, through the back, a powerful thrust, which slightly lifts the whole animal and drives the body forward. Reaching far under, and passing the imprint left by the front foot, the hind foot takes hold of the ground; then hock, stifle, and upper thigh come into play and sweep back, the stroke of the hind leg finishing with the foot still close to the ground in a smooth follow through. The overreach of the hindquarter usually necessitates one hind foot passing outside and the other hind foot passing inside the track of the forefeet, and such action is not faulty unless the locomotion is crab-wise with the dog’s body sideways out of the normal straight line. As the dog increases speed into the "flying trot', he should move fluidly, without pounding. The forelegs should reach out well past the nose while the head is carried forward." 


..... Our breed standard focuses the hardest on movement, because this is where the judge can help us in properly evaluating the quality of each animal shown. If you add items 6 (topline, tail, hindquarters) and 7 (gait, transmission) together, the sum can be up to 40 of the maximum 100 points.

Why is this area so important to our dogs? Because watching these dogs moving in a "flying trot" looks awesome? Not exactly! First and foremost the Shiloh Shepherd was bred to be a trotting dog, be it for herding or just jogging next to their owners. These dogs should possess an easy flowing (non-tiring) trot. The dogs that naturally choose to move in an extended trot also display correct structure (everything where it should be) while dogs that do not move well could be exhibiting some serious structural defects! For a deeper understanding of the importance of proper movement, I would like to suggest Dogsteps: Illustrated Gait at a Glance by Rachel Page Elliott. Some people think that the beauty of the flying trot is not that important if you only plan to have your dog as a pet (couch potato)....But...there is a lot more to this than meets the eye!

Since gait is considered to be a critical part of the overall quality of these dogs, breeding programs should always take the "total" dog into consideration!

I'm afraid the link didn't convince me. Only two of those those dogs pictured looked like could have any real athletic ability.  But again- thats ok. I have yet to see anyone toting off Shilohs or Kings as the next top working dog. If they are healthy companions and the people who are own are happy, great.

KCzaja,  please make sure you LOOKED CAREFULLY. This article was mainly about the dogs being bred by the non-ISSR breeders. Most of them have very poor structure. When you click on the link, the middle dog pictured in the "Movement" section is a non-ISSR dog with poor movement.

Anway, to each his own. I certainly wouldn't want Bucko's dog!  I wouldn't have the energy to keep up with it. My GSD's went for a 2 hour long hike with me yesterday. AT the end of the hike, they still had the energy to tussle and play-growl at each other, but when we finally got home, they were content to collapse on the rug and rest.

Okay, Star kept bugging me to play ball with her... 

Edit due to thread drift.

So, how come this year's Sieger doesn't do it, even when off leash, so no one's holding him back, the most frequent excuse given when a dog is reaching too high with the front legs? (And, BTW, as every horse person will be able to tell you, the trot is a 2-beat gait in which diagonally opposite legs strike the ground at the same time. That's obviously NOT happening in the above photo!)

Fred's book might give us a clue:

Pg. 91-92: Many are impressed by the dog that actually reaches further than his nose, thinking this to be the ultimate in movement perfection. In fact, it is in most cases faulty movement, for the paw is lifted too far from the ground, approaching the horizontal...So, in studying the side gait of a German Shepherd Dog, look to see how high he steps when his foreleg is at its foremost position. If you see a lot of daylight under the pad, the dog is wasting motion and since waste is the opposite of efficiency, it has no place in the correct working dog.

Lifting: Why does one dog lift his feet high, and another swing his feet  "close to the ground on both forward reach and backward push," to quote the standard?....

If a dog has better angulation in the hindquarters than it does in the front, as is very common, the rear legs will have slightly longer stride than the front legs. Since the dog can't run faster (take more steps) in front than he can in the rear, he must do something with those front legs (lift them) which will take up that tiny amount of time required to wait for the rear legs to complete their full stride.


And, might I add, if the diagonally opposite front and rear legs are hitting the ground at different times, as is so often seen in showline dogs these days, the flying trot becomes an impossibility.

Edit due to thread drift.

Some of these dogs look like the "Hunchback of Notre Dame."

Very unnatractive.