Stud fee's - Page 2

To: crhuerta

Value of one pup. VA rated stud.  Adequate female. Pups are at least $1200 - $1500. Average litter size 7.5 pups that is $11250 -$1500(stud fee)=$9750.  If you can not raise a litter  for $9750 then you must be doing something wrong!
 Even if the litter is 4 pups after stud service you have $4500. This works down to the price of pups at about $600.  If you are selling pups too cheep, let say for  $200, then you are performing charity. But I do not think that that is aplicable to VA stud and adequate female.
 I personally, if the litter is smaller then 4, give one stud service for free.
Prager(Hans)
http://www.alpinek9.com

Hans,
Then we are doing something wrong!  Almost always!
My average litter is 5-6 puppies, rarely do I have females that produce more......
My average paid stud fee is $1000 in US......and maybe costs of $3000 US or more shipping female to Germany for breeding.
including shipping 2x, stud fee, vet costs, borading... etc.......AND NO GUARANTEE female gets pregnant.
Hopefully I have a litter of 5 puppies...I keep 1 or 2,.....sell the other 3 for $ 1000 to $2000.......HOPEFULLY $2000, but more realistic $1000.  AFTER shots, worming, vet costs & TIME......what BIG bucks???  I have not had a "repeat breeding" for small litters.
My last litter was 1 puppy......$1000 stud fee, C-section....etc........it will be worth it to me, IF she turns out to be what I expect.
We have "placed" many puppies from our litters, ......we breed for ourselves.
I am VERY HAPPY when we actually cover ALL our costs, AND have a "special" puppy from the litter.
I don't knock other breeders from making a profit.......I simply state.....IF you breed for the right reasons.....you stand to NOT make money........or maybe we're just plain "business stupid"....
JMO
Robin

You also need to consider a salary part. How much would you pay yourself to stay up at nights, feeding puppies etc... the rearing the mother dog for the year. Lots of factors to account for.

Based on Prager, i would earn 9650 profit which is good if i didnt consider feeding puppies, my salary (24000 a year), feeding the dogs, kennel over heads and building cost. Also need to add the cost of titling a female, training, transport.

Leave the breeding to breeders. Its a full time job if done right. Its a loss unless you decide to run a puppy mill. Ppl do it for the love, and more over break even. You would never become rich doing dogs but you can lead a comfortable life doing what you love

We just had a litter born on Friday and here is our cost:
Flying with female to Germany: $ 840
One way cost for female (accompanied): $ 400
Boarding female in Germany with friend: 150 Euros a month (we had to board for 3 months 450 Euros which equals $ 650)
Flight home unaccompanied for female: 569 Euros (which equals $ 825)
Stud fee in Germany: 500 Euros (which equals $ 725)
Travel expenses for my friend to drive to stud dog twice: 300 Euros (which equals $ 435)
Vet expenses in Germany for progesterone test, herpes vaccination and ultrasound: 150 Euros (which equals $ 217)
On Friday, we had to take our female to the vet after no more puppies were delivered for an emergency C-section and our vet is a friend of ours: $ 667
All this totals to $ 4,759 in costs, accummulated before the puppies were even born!
Our litter size was 3 very lively puppies and one stillborn one! At least two of these puppies will stay with us and partners, maybe even all. If we do decide to sell one, what should the price be? Very expensive adventure but if we get what we want - it is priceless, since we only breed for ourselves and not for other people!
Now let me tell you about the costs I have so far accummulated with my other female who has been staying in Germany for the past year or so. I won't even get into it what the costs for the titles were since that has nothing to do with a litter:
Flying female over $ 620
One way cost for female (accompanied): $ 400
Monthly boarding fees to date (that was included in the fees for titling, but she was finished in January, so now it is monthly fees for board which is 200 Euros a month which so far equals $ 2,600 including September)
Stud fee to Iceman in March was 600 Euros (I think) which equals to $ 870
Travel fees to stud within Germany was 300 Euros which equals $ 435
Vet expenses in Germany for prog. test, ultrasound, herpes vaccination was 150 Euros (which equals $ 217)
Female stayed empty, so she stayed on!
Came into season again end of July and new travel expenses occured for repeat breeding, 300 Euros which equals $ 435
Of course, the stud was free since it was a repeat breeding.
Vet expense - ongoing since it was found out that instead of puppies, her uterus was full of puss. She was diagnosed with pyometra! We want to save her fertility and keep her intact. So, the expenses are ongoing! Of course, the original stud will not be available anymore because he just left for China! So, we have to find a new one and pay another stud fee as well! Summing that up, so far we have paid out $ 5,577 and our girl is not even pregnant yet. Wish me luck that we do not have to spay her because that loss will be devastating and in the five figures, when we count her titles, breed survey and show rating as well.
Maybe Prager can give me some financial advise what I can do differently since he seems to have such a simple and easy formula on how to make a profit with breeding! I am obviously not a good business woman!

Even staying in the U.S., it is very easy to tie up 2000 - $3000 (in the breeding alone) and come up empty.

I've done this and haven't bred a litter in over 10 years. 

There is quite a bit of difference in cash outlay in a program that is based on an owned stud and one based on females who need to be matched with the best possible mate. And as Silbersee says, a breeding that is done for the owners expectations and not as a source of income.

It certainly looks like a gold mine on paper and I'm quite sure some do very well, but it is in no way as automatic as some make it seem

Rik

I don't understand what is expected of a litter that a person is willing to spend thousands of dollars to breed.What are these pups used for  showline or working line, both I would assume.What will make you feel like the breeding was a success.I know you guys said that you breed for yourselves, so I would think you have expected goals.I'm not trying to be a smart alec,
I,m just trying to understand your reasons.I guess to really break my questions down to the basics,whats in it for you.Is it fame on the field or in the showring.Is it possible financial gain in the future from these pups. I'm not being critical and I,m sorry if I come across that way,

"I don't understand what is expected of a litter that a person is willing to spend thousands of dollars to breed.What are these pups used for showline or working line, both I would assume.What will make you feel like the breeding was a success.I know you guys said that you breed for yourselves, so I would think you have expected goals.I'm not trying to be a smart alec,
I,m just trying to understand your reasons.I guess to really break my questions down to the basics,whats in it for you.Is it fame on the field or in the showring.Is it possible financial gain in the future from these pups. I'm not being critical and I,m sorry if I come across that way,"



Since my goals were Am. S/L at the time  I was breeding, I will leave this answer to breeders such as crhuerta and Silbersee to answer.

As for myself and my goals at the time, I could have give a S*** less about financial gain. I did not need it. It never entered into my thinking. I wanted the "perfect" dog. I did not care about selling puppies, I didn't care about getting my money back. I didn't care about anything except the dog that I had stuck in my mind.  

I had my ideal of perfection  (however right or wrong I may have been)  and I was willing to pursue it at any cost.

Regardless of the non sense carried on this board, there are many people who only want to satisfy themselves and $ does not even enter into the equation.



Rik

The self "gratification"  of producing a dog with the temperment & drive to title in the sport of ScH, (or any venue asked of them).. AND be a front runner in the Conformation Shows.  
Every time we do well, knowing we have no politics, low finances and are a "smaller" breeder........we are extremely proud!
It is completely for selfish reasons.....we LOVE it..
It takes a lot of blood, sweat & tears.....as Chris also explained. 
Robin

Thanks for the honest answers,I was just curious as to your reasons.I wish you continued success.

Michael,
the reason you might not understand is the common misconception at looking at this from a business perspective. Yes, a lot of breeders and dog populators (puppy mills and backyard breeders) calculate like that. But people like Robin and I view this as a hobby, or better said a passion. When you do that, you do not mind spending this money and time. Look at other hobbies: Some people collect coins or stamps, or antique tools (I just met somebody like that at a party last Saturday and was amazed). Others love to go sailing, skiing, hiking, vacations etc etc. All hobbies cost money and most people do not ever expect to get reimbursed, let alone make a profit. I have no problem that people turn dogs into business, just not the breeding part. A good trainer is worth every penny he/she makes, a clean reliable boarding kennel is a gem and even more important in my opinion is a great reputable dog broker who would serve as a mediator between dog breeder/owner and interested clients. But a breeder is the single most important entity in every purebred's life and existence as he/she is responsible for the breed's wellbeing and genetic health. I also do not believe that there is anything wrong with a breeder's preference as long as it is within the breed standard. Some people want to win in the showring, others breed for sport, others for working aspects. It is up to the individual to decide which breeder works best for him/her and has what he is striving for.

Robin and Rik,
on a lighter note, I just found out that I too am  considered a backyard breeder, as a registered user in a different thread defined a BYB as someone who only breeds a couple of litters a year. I could not stop laughing and almosted posted a comment but then decided that it was not worth it.
Cheers to everyone!
Chris