high drive show lines? - Page 2

In my humble opinion,working dog and show dog breeders are equally responsible for the destruction of the breed.Working lines are bred for drives,trainability,strong nerves,ect. no real concern for color,ability to live in a normal non working home.Bred to be a high drive working dog to the point where they are to much dog for most people.Beautiful dogs however,but not in the eyes of the conformation folks.On the other side of the fence are the conformation breeders,dogs bred for the show ring,color and conformation,little to no thought about the physical condition,or the ability to do the work.Just enough drive and nerve to pass a simulated courage test.Both sides continue to breed for the traits that suit them.Neither side wants to give up anything that might produce the total gsd,I realize that some breed a cross of the two lines, but not anywhere near the scale it has to be on to save the real gsd of old, a dog that might not win in the showring,might not be on the podium at the wusv,but a dog that you can live with that is loyal,protective,intelligent,healthy
trustworthy,loving,the true gsd as it was meant to be.The gsd world is split,no common goal,no compromise only the desire to win in there own venues from both sides.Bottom line,its about winning and money on both sides,I don't see much concern for the total gsd from either side.I,m sure I'll get a lot of flack from both sides,but all I can say is take a good look at  your breeding program,then throw your stones.To all of you that are breeding to preserve the true gsd,carry on,you're the real winners,no fame needed.You are the true gsd lovers..JMHO             Michael

I bred working line dogs for 13 years, and since 1997 I've had only show line dogs. Temperament is the number one issue as far as I am concerned. I work hard to use the best lines for this when I breed. These are the best lines I have found for drive and strength:
Enzo vom Buchhorn, Natz Steigerhof, Nero Nobachtal, Larus Batu, (I have a young female line bred 3-3 on Larus and she has more drive and a better grip than anyting I have ever had no matter what the lines), Kevin Murrtal, Hill Farbenspiel. Having as little as possible from the Q litter Aminius seems to help, and lots of Uran gives stronger temperament. I've probably missed some, but these come to mind at the moment.
Jana

Oops, forgot Rikkor Bad-Boll and Ulk Arlett.
in my opinion, if you go to the Seiger show in Germany and watch the bite work you can see that they are making progress in breeding dogs who work better. I train all my dogs in Schutzhund and have done for 30 years. A good dog is a good dog no matter what the lines. And there are just as many working line dogs who can't work as there are show line dogs that can't work. It's just that people who have show lines that can't work continue to show them and take them to the Sieger shows and they flunk bite work. The working line dogs that can't work are never seen again.
Jana

As i have said many times before,the only problem with the german shepherd breed is humans who breed them and humans who own them,Breeders are very subjective in thier breeding and owners want to own them without even making any effort to learn something first before they get a german shepherd.Just because we do not have a law to stop every jack ass to own a shepherd,does not mean all human are capable of owning a shpherd.


The biggest misconception about working german shpeherd breed among people who do not have any knowledge about the working drive of a  dog, is that they can not live in the house.this is true for people who should not own a german shepherd. there is more to say but what would be the point the dummies still go out and buy one without even thinking about what they are buying. Have a nice one.

The biggest misconception about working german shpeherd breed among people who do not have any knowledge about the working drive of a dog, is that they can not live in the house.this is true for people who should not own a german shepherd. there is more to say but what would be the point the dummies still go out and buy one without even thinking about what they are buying. Have a nice one.


 
A freakin Men.  it's absolute inexperience or ignorance that keeps perpetuating this crap.  You know what, if you can't keep the dog in the house you pbobably don't belong owning a WORKING dog period.  No market???? Good, there will always be a market, just not one for no drive, no nerve, ghost in the head, spooks that look pretty.

A properly breed working line shepherd has no problem living in a home as long as the owner knows what they want and the responsibilities that come with the choise.

The biggest problem I see is the "dumbing down" of the breed because to many people want a couch potato and thats not what the breed is for. 

Beautiful is the utility of the dog, it,s abality to work hard and prosper in it to excell in it,s abalities and it,s intended purpose.

 

A dog that comes to mind is...... Triumph's Gucci.
A great Schutzhund/Show  Dog, and a  gentleman in the house.

I am in complete agreement with what Bob has to say.Although many people buy the working dogs ,simply because it is a working breed.I think that the term working line gsd has a whole different meaning then what a lot of folks take it to mean.We have dogs that are over the top in drive or real close to it. The average family does not know The real meaning of working line gsd.Usually they end up with a dog that they didn't want.They're idea of a working gsd is a dog that learns the  basic obedience easy enough without alot of training,does not require a lot of time and exercise,socialized on the ocassional family outing,or with friends and family visiting the home.The ocassional sessions of ball or frisby throwing and expected to be a happy and content family member,with no bad behavior.Some of these people don,t know,some are not told what to expect of the pup,otherwise they might choose to buy the pup,sad but true.Show line dogs seem to have the same out come for different reasons,various allergys,hip problems,breedings with Joe down the streets nice looking expensive male.Must be a nice dog,cost Joe 1500.00 dollars this happens with the working lines as well.That being said, I think both sides will continue down they're own roads.Showline for the sake of beauty in their eyes,reguardless of the ovious problems they are causing the breed.Working lines,maybe infuse a little more drive in the dog,after all just a little mal or dutchie blood should do the trick.I'm not talking about everyone,but we all know they are out there.    
                                                                                                                        Michael

To the original question, I think that this is kind of hard to answer.  What do you mean by "high drive"?
Are you talking about prey, defense, fight, all of the above, or, likes to drive in expensive cars?
It is very subjective.
For instance, I too, have seen a few of the dogs mentioned above and I think that some are weak nerved and have crappy temperament.
I think that a good majority of reasonably well bred GSD pups (show or work) will be drivey little beasts if that is allowed by, or, brought out of them by their owner and certainly not squashed by their owner at a young age. A better judge of these drivey beasts is when they are between one and three years old. They have developed more mentally and now think a lot more, as opposed to only reacting the way young pups do. In my opinion, this is when you really start to see what you have in a dog.

Bob, and others, I agree with you that a working line GSD can easily live in a home. I have three that do this quite nicely, with other dogs, and with cats.

I am not so sure that I agree anymore that there is "only one GSD". In my opinion, without counting, we probably have nearly twenty different types of GSD and I do not see anything wrong with it. The purists may not like this, but, I think that we may be better served accepting the fact that this is a very versatile breed and it is no longer one size fits all. The different types of GSD have evolved because that is what people like. I may want/like something about a certain type of GSD and you may like/want something completely different. What is wrong with that? Let people enjoy what they want and, in turn, enjoy what  you have.

As a side note to this, I also agree with Bob that the breed is continually being "dumbed down". I no longer blame the showline people for this. That already happened. I think that working line people are now to be blamed. As I have said before, working line dogs used to be the "dirty little secret" of GSD's. Not so anymore. As a very good friend exclaimed to me months ago, "The working line GSD is now like a Prada bag. Everyone has to have one!"
With the advent of the greatest marketing and information tool known to man, the internet, working line GSD's are also big business. How many of the progeny of world champion caliber working line GSD's are sitting in homes as expensive pets that do nothing????