Stock coat actually long coat? Genetics question. - Page 2

I would not even want to guess what you don't know about bloodlines, even if that was the only way to suppose what would be the result of a given mating. Want to share your expertise on any given bloodline?

Hodie, I have a very successful breeding program. Of course I forget, I know nothing in comparison to you.

Does anyone tho????

Lots of people know more than I do, but you are not one of them. Does this mean you can't answer the question about bloodlines? And successful breeding program means what?

Oh come on.  Get out and train your dog, that's where I'm headed.  Hodie has forgotten more about this breed than all of you instigators know collectively.  Listen and learn, or not - but take it private not all of us want to hear  the spewing.

       It simply means I'm not going to answer it to you hodie. it's like I said,

I say potatoe, you say patotoe.

Never claimed to be an expert, but I AM RATHER KNOWLEDGABLE about the VARIOUS Bloodlines, and WHAT several have to offer.

AND, unlike you, I'm still trying to LEARN MORE, there is room in my head for more info. That's why I come here and visit various other sites.

Always looking to learn, NEVER claimed to be an expert, probably never will be one either!

Hodie is right, its a gamble.  Most do not really understand how the genes function and the concept or probability.  .  Throw an equal amount of the same shape objects in a bag of two different colors (like 300 of em).  Simulates breeding two  versions of a gene (long coat/stock coat)   Pull out two and a time.  Record how many times you get two of the same color by color and one of each.  I gareentee you, that if you pull ten out, you will not get a 50/50 split unless you are really luck or cheating.  However, once you are done pulling out 150 pairs, the ratio should be close to 25% homozygous for one trait, 50% heterozygous and 25% homozygous for the other trait.  Do this several times, you will see different results each time but it will be close to the predicted probability.  I did this with a few high school classes of mine and does a good job demonstrating the concept to them of the large numbers of combinations needed to re-demonstrate the way geneticist came up with the probability ratios for a single chromosome or genetic trait.  Poloygenetic traits are enfinately more difficult to predict and require an advanced knowledge of statistical equations. 

Now unless the long coat trait is polygenetic, there is no way there can be more than 2 copies of the gene unless the dog has an abnormal complement of chormosomes (an extra one or extra piece on one with the coat gene) .

There is also the potential that there is some linked gene with the stock coat that she is carrying that is lethal (conceptions don't develop or die in utero).  Whenever I hear of a stud dog that produces a higher number of males, my mind typically says that either he has not produced enough puppies to be statistiaclly signifigant for that dog or his X chromosome has something wrong with it.  In most mammels the nature of sperm will favor male over female conception at a probability of  about 51% to 49%, the ratios equalize due to the increased chance of loss of life for males in humans (usually accidents, sorry guys but you take more chances with dangerous situations than us gals).    Another example of this is my maternal family line.  My grandmother was from a family of 13, call this gen. 1, 6 girls 7 boys, one boy died after eating poisonous berries (out on the farm in the 1910's).  My grandmother had five children, 4 boys one girl.  I am from the one girl.  My generation has 14 grandchildren 50/50, my kids generation has 14 boys and 9 girls.  Definatly not a 50/50 throughout the 3 generations.  Definatly an over aboundance of boys.   Does not prove that the male gene is passed on more than the female gene, because you can go out a find another family that would be the reverse.  Plus we would need to look at the health/genetic complement of the mothers, I lost two female children before three months gestation, have only three live male children, indictative of an X linked issue that may also be carryed by my female cousins since all but one of the 9 girls were born to the women that married into the family.

Valid statistics need to be based on a large amount of data.  They can be looked at  as a general rule, but one needs to remember that the 25%/50%/25% are probabilities not exact ratios and connot be relyed on in as small a population as a single litter.  Thats why geneticist use fruit flies to predict inheitence probabilities, fast generations and many many offspring at a time!

My stats One female mated to one male 9 puppies 7 long coats - mated to another male 11 puppies 1 long coat.

Like I said, you can't base the numbers on two litters from one female from different fathers,  too many variables and too few results.  Need to look at 100's of litters from many dogs shown to have the recessive gene and start counting from those results.

We also need to take into account the variation in the stock coat gene.  What the heck is the plush variation and are people really looking at a fluffier pup that is not a true long coat and calling it such?  My male was sold at a discount because my breeder thought he was a coat, he's not.  He was just a really fluffy pup.  I have seen large breeders not be able to tell for sure until the pup was 12 weeks old and the ear fluff was still present.

I know nothing about  gene pools and breeding but-Kaiser came from a litter of 8- all long coats the  - Pancho Vom? VON? Bergmannshoff looked plush to me - and mom Sindi  was short coat very sleek looking  (Sindi's retired ) anyway and her pedigree I can't find on here- but I have them here physically.

as  I said Long-Coats -never had one but I adore the dog:( Mama's boy LOL