Would you pay? - Page 2

No, you didn't specify that info.

Hm. An unproven stud...and you agreed to pay how much for sperm from an unproven stud? Where does the $2000 come into play-was that their stud fee price, or just an amount they're throwing at you now? I wasn't aware the first sperm sample was ruined because of the stud owners vet, too. This all sounds...well, wierd. And I'm with Shelley on the stud fee price, too-a nice titled proven stud can cost around $1000 and be worth every penny, but $2000 for an unproven stud?

I think I would request a sperm check as nicely as I could considering the circumstances; if owners refuse to provide such (which I wouldn't be shocked if they did at this point), then I would consider legal counsel/advice. If the stud owners are already threatining sueing you for $2000, then I doubt they will wanna negotiate. Why do they seek so much $$$ and are so threatening if you paid for all vet costs and nothing was produced with the fault being theirs for one attempt (which could be your bitch's fault OR his fault for the 2nd failed attempt-either way)?  Has your bitch had pups before to prove she's a proven mother? Whew, what a mess. I feel bad for your situation.

Unless its just a big heist that you got sucked into due to the contract/agreement you originally made.

SSDD.

I have an issue with someone I shipped chilled semen to twice right now. I wouldn't be surprised if it surfaced here. I shipped the woman semen over two years ago. I dropped the stud fee 25% to help offset the $200. collection/shipping fees (repro specialist 1.5 hrs away on my end) She said the first shipping didn't arrive "in very good shape." No word on what she did with it... If there was anything still swimming I would have used it, who knwos what hey did with it on their end? I gave her one year for a re-breeding, live or shipped, again her expense for collection/shipping. Over TWO years later she asked me to make good on the offer, and I did, even though I had an outside bitch for breeding the very same day. We used the outside bitch for a teaser, such a nice woman owns her! WE did not pilfer any of the collection for the teaser bitch. that would not have been fair.

My dog is now 8.5 yrs old. There were a few half-dissolved red blood cells in the collection, so the collecting vet advised the bitch owner, asked her if she wanted the semen shipped, because we could have used the semen for the bitch used as the teaser right then and there. It was good as far as concentration, 80% count and 80% motility (super for a dog younger than mine). We even extended and chilled it, re-warmed it, and checked it again before shipping, still same counts, but the bitch owner was told the second collection might not ship well, giving her the option to refuse it. Remember, the contract expired over a year earlier. I only did this, drove 1.5 hrs to the repro specialist as a courtesy! The bitch owner said "send it" so we did. She also said to my vet that she had a second male on stand by in case the semen didn't arrive viable!

The bitch owner now tells me the semen arrived dead. She wants me to pay her $1500. to cover the reduced stud fee I charged her in the first place (2 yrs ago) + ALL pre-breeding tests (progesterone, vet visits) for her bitch + all shipping and collection costs for BOTH times!

Fat f!@king chance! I gave up a stud fee for the bitch we used as a teaser, ready and waiting to breed to my dog that moment, to send the semen collected to this woman as a courtesy. I drove 1.5 hrs each way to the specialist for collection/shipping twice. My dog has a litter coming in two-three weeks, so he isn't sterile; no misrepresentation there.

The avg conception rate for shipped fresh semen is 40-60%. Some dogs' semen doesn't ship at all. Personally, as a bitch owner, those figures don't work for me. I would never do it. Frozen semen figures inseminated immediately are even worse, shipped WAY worse. Its a HUGE gamble, fraught with issues.

You promised half the stud fee. Send it and be done with it is my best advice. Don't try it again.
Driving/sending your bitch is your best option. The Germans are right about some things. That's one of them.

Good luck in future.
SS

Wow, Shelley. What a fiasco of a situation for you, although I can't see where a judge could really fault you considering the facts (your male produced pups while this was all going on, showing he IS/WAS viable). But even when something looks obviously cut and dried, when it comes to the justice system, nothing is guaranteed. Some peoples' thinking is just impossible to understand. Like I tell my hubby, you can't make sense outta nonsense. Hope it works out for you.

The dog world is wraught with painful lessons, isn't it? We should write a book someday.

I have spoken with a number of reputable breeders. Nobody thinks I owe this person anything. She could have SENT the female any time for a live breeding. I don't even charge for the 3.5 hr round-trip airport runs, no bitch care charges, and I breed visiting females every other day for as long as they will stand. I will even deliver my stud dogs to the bitches if I have the time, save the female the stress of it all!   I even delivered him to a repro vet awhile back for surgical uterin implantation. She had 5 live pups. T has only failed to get ONE female pregnant, a maiden bitch.

I doubt I will ship semen again, even for a young dog, but if I do, the contract will be even more specific and I will send a test batch to myself, care of a trusted vet, to make sure it ships well before I send it to somebody else and I will add a few bucks to the cost for my time, travel and trouble.

Breeding is always a gamble. How many times have we bred our females, done everything right, multiple live breedings, and failed to get puppies? On the other hand, I know one breeder who shipped semen cross-country. Only ONE viable sperm was alive at the other end. They used it. The bitch had two pups.
The moral of the story- Don't throw the babies out with the bath water. Ha ha ha ha ha. Those little swimmers can be pretty pernacious given half a chance!

SS

I have been asked to ship semen for my stud. I refuse. Not worth the expense nor the hassle for such a low chance of success. This thread proves it. I have driven hours ( for FREE!) to meet people 1/2 way for breeding or to get the female here on time. I don't charge for airport pick up or boarding. I have let bitch owners stay in my home overnight to help offset the cost of the expensive motels in my area. I will let my stud cover the female for as long as both dogs are willing. I realize how much time effort and the high hopes a bitch owner has when to comes to breeding her female so I try to do all I can to help obtain a successful and timely breeding...but shipping semen simply not worth it.

I think the biggest concern is what they do with the semen at the other end. First I was told the first sperm sample "didn't arrive in very good condition". Then, 2 yrs later, I was told (by the bitch owner) the first sample was DOA and the second one DOA as well. The first sample was sent to a regular vet's office, (not a repro specialist) the last was picked up at FedEx, sent in the name of a repro vet, but who knows who picked it up and what they did with it?  For all I know there are 3-4 litters of T puppies somewhere in the midwest in pet homes with some other dog's name on their pedigrees. Who would know?    If the samples WERE indeed even marginally viable, say 2-10%, hell, the bitch is standing right there, you paid for it, why wouldn't you use it?  It doesn't take very many and when you AI they don't have to swim very far.

I doubt I will get sued for this across state lines. It would be expensive, but in this litigious society, who knows? Most of my contracts specify that any disputes must be settled in my local jurisdiction. It costs $250. just to file suit here. We don't have small claims court in PA. The stuff was alive and swimming when it left here.

SS

 "The stuff was alive and swimming when it left here. " That is  part of my point here.  The first one was not? alive and swimming when it left their vet's office.    It certainly was not alive on arrival by Fed-Ex (within 6 hours of being actually sent.)  Our vet said it was no good after he  looked at it under the scope.  I had him put it in anyway.  Maybe,  as you say they don't have to swim very far that way.

So I considered the first one null and void.  No pups very slim chance in the first place.  So.. the second time was the first time we received viable semen and therefore was the first actual breeding.  But no pups and now they want me to pay the stud fee.  I really wanted to try again as this was the guarantee.  2 live pups, or 1 rebreeding.  If we had had no pups on the second time with viable semen, I would have accepted fate and paid the fee.  They changed what they wanted before we got a chance to get puppies!  And as I said earlier we paid every expense they presented.

I would get a hold of the vet that did the collection/shipping, find out how it looked before they extended, chilled and shipped it.
They DID have a repro specialist collect and ship, right? With a commerically prepared extender?
Most home-made extenders don't work.

SS

 Their regular repro vet was on vacation and they used a different vet.  Not sure if it was a repro vet or not, but the vet had told our vet that it looked very good.  Of course that was before  it sat on their counter overnight.  It would have been funny if we all had not had so much at stake.