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by Videx on 10 March 2009 - 13:03
Gustav: I do not consider you an X-spurt. I respect many of your opinions and comments.
by Videx on 10 March 2009 - 19:03
bump
by nugget on 10 March 2009 - 19:03
Hi David;
The GSD League and, to a lesser extent BAGSD, offer a nationwide network of facilities where training in SCH/VPG is available. You are correct to highlight the advantage of owner training; it provides an exiting oppurtunity to learn and indulge in an extremly enjoyable interest . It also offers an opppurtunity to further understand canine behaviour, drives and pschycology.
I would also note that such practice is currently undertaken in the UK, Tony Marsland with his female "izzy" I think made V3 or 5 at the British Seiger; she also put on an extremly impresive display of protection work- she was handelr owner trained at South Cheshire.
The other issues you mention are simply a matter of time and will, if people wish to follow this path.
Cheers Nugget
The GSD League and, to a lesser extent BAGSD, offer a nationwide network of facilities where training in SCH/VPG is available. You are correct to highlight the advantage of owner training; it provides an exiting oppurtunity to learn and indulge in an extremly enjoyable interest . It also offers an opppurtunity to further understand canine behaviour, drives and pschycology.
I would also note that such practice is currently undertaken in the UK, Tony Marsland with his female "izzy" I think made V3 or 5 at the British Seiger; she also put on an extremly impresive display of protection work- she was handelr owner trained at South Cheshire.
The other issues you mention are simply a matter of time and will, if people wish to follow this path.
Cheers Nugget
by Videx on 11 March 2009 - 08:03
The two WUSV Clubs here in the UK are The BAGSD and The GSD League, they are the GSD Clubs to organise this or a similar "SV system" programme. Many GSD enthusiasts may attend the seminar simply to assess if it is of any interest to them or not, others will want to learn more and want to try and qualify their dog. Perhaps the two WUSV Clubs could do some market research amongst the GSD fraternity within the UK to establish the level of interest for a seminar on this subject. The lack of responses on this thread may indicate very little interest. Perhaps those informing me there is little point in getting involved with our breed outside of your own home, are right. The show scene is crumbling and the only response from our leading GSD organisations is more tinkering.
I hear the surveyors are considering tinkering with the BC Breed Survey, don't they realise how lucky they are that the British Sieger 'saved' the BC Breed Survey from extinction. Any changes will pose a direct risk to both the survey and the British Sieger. Currently relatively few people x-ray for elbow dysplasia, and I am informed that ED will be added to the BC breed survey from January 2010. This is quite ridiculous, even Germany gave several years notice of its inclusion in the Korung. I would suggest that January 2012 should be the earliest that ED is introduced. I understand the SV is examining the Korung with a view to making some changes, I would suggest that our BC Breed Survey is left as it is for at least two years, then a revue can take place. If our show scene continues to deteriate, which seems certain, there will be no need to revue something that very few have any interest in. Our surveyors appear to enhancing the likelihood of their own demise by tinkering with the BC Breed Survey.
I hear the surveyors are considering tinkering with the BC Breed Survey, don't they realise how lucky they are that the British Sieger 'saved' the BC Breed Survey from extinction. Any changes will pose a direct risk to both the survey and the British Sieger. Currently relatively few people x-ray for elbow dysplasia, and I am informed that ED will be added to the BC breed survey from January 2010. This is quite ridiculous, even Germany gave several years notice of its inclusion in the Korung. I would suggest that January 2012 should be the earliest that ED is introduced. I understand the SV is examining the Korung with a view to making some changes, I would suggest that our BC Breed Survey is left as it is for at least two years, then a revue can take place. If our show scene continues to deteriate, which seems certain, there will be no need to revue something that very few have any interest in. Our surveyors appear to enhancing the likelihood of their own demise by tinkering with the BC Breed Survey.
by Sue B on 11 March 2009 - 12:03
I was hoping to watch this thread grow with messages, idea's and opinions from a variety of people, whether they be FOR or AGAINST I didnt really mind, I was just hoping (without any input from myself) to watch it grow. I was hoping because if interest was being stimulated (regardless of which way the interest was leaning) at least it meant Apathy was dying. Sadly it appears apathy is not only alive but rampant amoung our breed, either that or all our so called breed enthusiasts are so stuck in the mud that they dont want the change that has to come to make progress, they just want the status quo ,,,,,,which at the moment means the continuation of a dying show scene for our breed and make no mistake if that happens our breeds future progress in the UK will die along with it.
In 2000 I wrote a comprehensive document on The Aims and Objectives for the Breed Advancement in the UK, incorporating the following Chapter Headings ;-, Breed Health Improvement, Improvement of Breed Relations, The Kennel Club Role, Working together for Mutual Advantage of achieving breed aims and objective , ensuring Progressive Improvement, Setting Realistic Timescales, Future Goals and Targets, Changes and their effets on the Breed.
I wrote it after I had heard there was going to be a Meeting arranged between the GSD Breed Council and the Kennel Club sometime that year and having shown it to my Club Committee it was agreed that we would submit it onto the BC Agenda as soon as we were informed when the Meeting with the KC was to take place and what was to be on the Agenda.
Sadly the fact, as it was then and still is now , is that the majority of us never are informed of these meetings or what is on the agenda to be discussed in any capacity other than retrospectively. No, the majority in this breed never get the chance to discuss, voice ideas, opinions or have any influence upon what is discussed or decided except an 'elite' few, many of which (especially in the past) dont even attend many of our shows and most certainly dont exhibit, never did quite seem right to me that and still doesnt. Needless to say the work I had done on the Presentation Document was a waste of time since the meeting had taken place before it ever had a chance of getting onto a BC Agenda and some time later that same year another Presentation Document I wrote on my ideas for Regions along with itemised proposals my club put onto the BC Agenda which were not only not voted upon but were not even allowed to be read out to the floor at the time.
Then people wonder why we have apathy, they wonder why after all these years of asking we had still got nowhere with breed advancement with the KC, they wonder why Clubs attending BC meetings shrank from a couple of dozen in attendance to a handful, they wonder why our show scene is dying.
I would say it we now need, if not prudent for us to have two Landsgruppen type shows a year, as a lead up to the Sieger Show, If we had bothered to not allow ourselves to be bulldozed nine years ago we could possibly have REGIONS in place already because it would take the co-operation of two, three or even four clubs working together to put on a Regional Landsgruppen, to share in both the financing and workload of the project.
I know for absolute certainty that I am not speaking out of turn when I say my club West Yks would be perfectly happy to host a Landsgruppen, we have the finances, the venue and the enthusiasm to do it alone but we wouid more than welcome any of our neighbour clubs joining us to make it more of a Regional Event. So hows about it people? What say You!?!
Regards Sue
In 2000 I wrote a comprehensive document on The Aims and Objectives for the Breed Advancement in the UK, incorporating the following Chapter Headings ;-, Breed Health Improvement, Improvement of Breed Relations, The Kennel Club Role, Working together for Mutual Advantage of achieving breed aims and objective , ensuring Progressive Improvement, Setting Realistic Timescales, Future Goals and Targets, Changes and their effets on the Breed.
I wrote it after I had heard there was going to be a Meeting arranged between the GSD Breed Council and the Kennel Club sometime that year and having shown it to my Club Committee it was agreed that we would submit it onto the BC Agenda as soon as we were informed when the Meeting with the KC was to take place and what was to be on the Agenda.
Sadly the fact, as it was then and still is now , is that the majority of us never are informed of these meetings or what is on the agenda to be discussed in any capacity other than retrospectively. No, the majority in this breed never get the chance to discuss, voice ideas, opinions or have any influence upon what is discussed or decided except an 'elite' few, many of which (especially in the past) dont even attend many of our shows and most certainly dont exhibit, never did quite seem right to me that and still doesnt. Needless to say the work I had done on the Presentation Document was a waste of time since the meeting had taken place before it ever had a chance of getting onto a BC Agenda and some time later that same year another Presentation Document I wrote on my ideas for Regions along with itemised proposals my club put onto the BC Agenda which were not only not voted upon but were not even allowed to be read out to the floor at the time.
Then people wonder why we have apathy, they wonder why after all these years of asking we had still got nowhere with breed advancement with the KC, they wonder why Clubs attending BC meetings shrank from a couple of dozen in attendance to a handful, they wonder why our show scene is dying.
I would say it we now need, if not prudent for us to have two Landsgruppen type shows a year, as a lead up to the Sieger Show, If we had bothered to not allow ourselves to be bulldozed nine years ago we could possibly have REGIONS in place already because it would take the co-operation of two, three or even four clubs working together to put on a Regional Landsgruppen, to share in both the financing and workload of the project.
I know for absolute certainty that I am not speaking out of turn when I say my club West Yks would be perfectly happy to host a Landsgruppen, we have the finances, the venue and the enthusiasm to do it alone but we wouid more than welcome any of our neighbour clubs joining us to make it more of a Regional Event. So hows about it people? What say You!?!
Regards Sue
by Videx on 11 March 2009 - 12:03
Hi Sue: Regional (LG) events (shows) could be superb events, especially hosted in the year that a club has no Championship Show. If regions were formed throughout the UK, clubs could come together in their regions to jointly host a regional (LG) event. The spin off benefits of such closer co-operation between clubs in the same region could stimulate other possibilities, for example a Regional WUSV Training Club. If we truly want our breeds future, here in the UK, to thrive, we have to bite the bullet and make some very important decisions. We have to think 'outside the box', and stimulate real progress.
by Langhaar on 11 March 2009 - 15:03
As Elbow testing has been available and recommended for GSD for a number of years now I see no problem with it being included in the Breed Survey, I can see no reason why people do NOT have their dogs elbow scored at the same time as their hips are as it is not much more money and is proof of their committment to the health of the breed. My dog has a0:0 elbow score and 5:3 hips, clear eyes, normal blood and this from a first time GSD owner!
by Sue B on 11 March 2009 - 20:03
Langhaar the problem is that EVEN in Germany they gave a 5yr warning of Elbows testing becoming Mandatory and that is how it should be. Despite what you think Elbow testing is a relatively new practice in the UK, so much so that some vets still dont do them and have no plans to start doing them, this includes one of the very best known vets in Yorkshire for taking and assessing Hip xrays.
Furthermore it has only being Mandatory in Germany for the past two years. Whenever something new is introduced it has to be feasible otherwise it is never going to work, the BC introducing Elbow status as Mandatory for passing a BC Survey by January 2010 was neither fair nor practicle and for that reason not realistically feasible. For example someone who IN ALL GOOD FAITH, going by the current guidelines mated their BC Class 1 surveyed female to a BC Class1 surveyed male in November 08 (prior to the decision to introduce Elbows by Jan 2010) , the progeny from this mating wasnt born until Jan 09 and therefore could not be surveyed themselves until July 2010 by which time the mandatory elbow testing part of the Survey would have already been running for 6mths, hardly seems fair that these people who in all good faith followed all the guidelines at the time of mating find that perhaps the elbows of the offspring are not quite up to standard, possibly due to either one or both of the parents having one or two bad elbows (though just as possibly both parents could have good elbows as with elbows it is not that simple) , either way it is not feasible to change the goal posts whilst the game is still in progress (as it were) .
So to summarise, Elbow testing should become part of the BC Survey but NOT be made MANDATORY for somewhere between 3 -5yrs time. This way people can start to look at the dogs which have been surveyed WITH ELBOWS already done and take appropriate action when mating because the WARNING to THE INTRODUCTION OF MANDATORY INCLUSION in the next 3+yrs would have been put into place. Gradual introduction and then inclusion is the ONLY SENSIBLE way to introduce ANY mandatory scheme , as I said before the Germans took 5yrs to make it mandatory for us to even contemplate doing it any faster than 3+years (i.e. before 2012) would be suicidal for the alternate bloodlines in this country.
This type of knowledge on the complexities of breeding and establishing, maintaining bloodlines is fundamental to the making of such decisions and understandably something the first time shepherd owner may not initially grasp the importance of.
Regards
Sue
Furthermore it has only being Mandatory in Germany for the past two years. Whenever something new is introduced it has to be feasible otherwise it is never going to work, the BC introducing Elbow status as Mandatory for passing a BC Survey by January 2010 was neither fair nor practicle and for that reason not realistically feasible. For example someone who IN ALL GOOD FAITH, going by the current guidelines mated their BC Class 1 surveyed female to a BC Class1 surveyed male in November 08 (prior to the decision to introduce Elbows by Jan 2010) , the progeny from this mating wasnt born until Jan 09 and therefore could not be surveyed themselves until July 2010 by which time the mandatory elbow testing part of the Survey would have already been running for 6mths, hardly seems fair that these people who in all good faith followed all the guidelines at the time of mating find that perhaps the elbows of the offspring are not quite up to standard, possibly due to either one or both of the parents having one or two bad elbows (though just as possibly both parents could have good elbows as with elbows it is not that simple) , either way it is not feasible to change the goal posts whilst the game is still in progress (as it were) .
So to summarise, Elbow testing should become part of the BC Survey but NOT be made MANDATORY for somewhere between 3 -5yrs time. This way people can start to look at the dogs which have been surveyed WITH ELBOWS already done and take appropriate action when mating because the WARNING to THE INTRODUCTION OF MANDATORY INCLUSION in the next 3+yrs would have been put into place. Gradual introduction and then inclusion is the ONLY SENSIBLE way to introduce ANY mandatory scheme , as I said before the Germans took 5yrs to make it mandatory for us to even contemplate doing it any faster than 3+years (i.e. before 2012) would be suicidal for the alternate bloodlines in this country.
This type of knowledge on the complexities of breeding and establishing, maintaining bloodlines is fundamental to the making of such decisions and understandably something the first time shepherd owner may not initially grasp the importance of.
Regards
Sue
by funky munky on 12 March 2009 - 07:03
BUMP
by Langhaar on 12 March 2009 - 08:03
This type of knowledge on the complexities of breeding and establishing, maintaining bloodlines is fundamental to the making of such decisions and understandably something the first time shepherd owner may not initially grasp the importance of.
Hmm, yes I am sure that I must have missed something with regard to the apparent special requirements of the GSD which is absent from all other breeds such as Labradors etc....................................
If you want a dog elbow scored you find one that does it.........
Hmm, yes I am sure that I must have missed something with regard to the apparent special requirements of the GSD which is absent from all other breeds such as Labradors etc....................................
If you want a dog elbow scored you find one that does it.........
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