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by steve1 on 07 March 2009 - 21:03
July9000
It is not compulsory to have Hips zrayed at 12 months old justa rule, and i do not know many who have them done at that age, 14 to 15 months yes but mostly they do them at 18 to 24 months old over here, If you live in the USA they did not start the Grading of Hips for the G.S Dog it was Germany so all critira should be based on there findings, Plus can you tell me does the same person who grades the hips also grade the Elbows in the USA, for it does not happen in the SV
Plus what Qualifications does the grader person have over there, In the SV the person grading is a Proffessor and should know his job regarding bones etc, other wise he would not have that ranking
Steve
It is not compulsory to have Hips zrayed at 12 months old justa rule, and i do not know many who have them done at that age, 14 to 15 months yes but mostly they do them at 18 to 24 months old over here, If you live in the USA they did not start the Grading of Hips for the G.S Dog it was Germany so all critira should be based on there findings, Plus can you tell me does the same person who grades the hips also grade the Elbows in the USA, for it does not happen in the SV
Plus what Qualifications does the grader person have over there, In the SV the person grading is a Proffessor and should know his job regarding bones etc, other wise he would not have that ranking
Steve
by july9000 on 07 March 2009 - 21:03
With OFA:
Three orthopedics doctors looks at the x-rays (HIP or Elbows they are bones specialists they can look at both!). Each gives it's reading and if you have 2 judging good and one fair it will be good (example). They are very well qualifies..
It's bugging me to know that they will stamp at one year old..we all know this is too young..and they claim they want the best for the breed...
.What is a professor? What are their degree in medecine? Any orthopedics specilaty with the SV??
Just asking..I always use OFA.
Three orthopedics doctors looks at the x-rays (HIP or Elbows they are bones specialists they can look at both!). Each gives it's reading and if you have 2 judging good and one fair it will be good (example). They are very well qualifies..
It's bugging me to know that they will stamp at one year old..we all know this is too young..and they claim they want the best for the breed...
.What is a professor? What are their degree in medecine? Any orthopedics specilaty with the SV??
Just asking..I always use OFA.
by Jenni78 on 07 March 2009 - 21:03
July, IMO, you are rather naiive regarding your views on hips and OFA/SV. Who has worse problems w/HD- the US or Germany? How much damage can occur to hips at an older age that were genetically perfect? Do we not know that HD can be seen at 12mos? Why then, must we wait until 24mos for OFA? Not only that, but OFA refuses to acknowledge the (almost-accepted as fact) theory that genetic unilateral HD does not exist, but that it occurs due to injury. According to OFA, a dog w/one perfect hip and one slightly "off" hip should not be bred...whereas in Ger. it's more readily accepted/known that this is not a genetic issue.
This country breeds weak dogs w/good hips to weak dogs w/good hips, and we end up with weak dogs with sometimes good hips. Why not instead breed great dogs to great dogs, and use our best judgement and be objective about hips? It's so much more than genes!!!
I also believe OFA goes with the LOWER rating, so your example is incorrect about the good/fair going "good." I may be wrong on this though, but that's what I remember.
This country breeds weak dogs w/good hips to weak dogs w/good hips, and we end up with weak dogs with sometimes good hips. Why not instead breed great dogs to great dogs, and use our best judgement and be objective about hips? It's so much more than genes!!!
I also believe OFA goes with the LOWER rating, so your example is incorrect about the good/fair going "good." I may be wrong on this though, but that's what I remember.
by july9000 on 07 March 2009 - 22:03
If you have a problem with OFA so be it Jenni..I have a problem with certifing a one year old dog cause I've seen some dogs that looks ok at 1 and we're dysplasic at 2. That's why..And why would you want to certify at one when you are not suppose to breed before 2..There is no good reason except wanting to breed earlier..IMO
If you want to breed a dog with one good hip and one dysplatic it is your call..you can live in your fantasy world and pretend your dog is half ok and breed it..We are in America you are free to be a BYB if you like..
There is not more problem in US than germany..most of the dogs for breeding in US are OFA certified..You are not right..my exemple is ok..
Are you telling me that YOU are better than a specialist evaluating X-Rays?? You have a big ego LOL!!
If you want to breed a dog with one good hip and one dysplatic it is your call..you can live in your fantasy world and pretend your dog is half ok and breed it..We are in America you are free to be a BYB if you like..
There is not more problem in US than germany..most of the dogs for breeding in US are OFA certified..You are not right..my exemple is ok..
Are you telling me that YOU are better than a specialist evaluating X-Rays?? You have a big ego LOL!!
by Jenni78 on 07 March 2009 - 22:03
LMAO, July. Wow are you touchy!
Your "breeding earlier" idea goes out the window.....remember that thing called a BREED SURVEY? How about KOER KLASSE? That doesn't happen until they're.......drumroll............TWO YEARS OLD!
The reason I see for certifying at 12mos is b/c it gives a better genetic idea...and the idiot American owner doesn't have the extra 12mos to F up the dog's hips.
So what if most of the dogs for breeding are OFA certified? What the hell does that have to do with the number of problems we have w/hips? You obviously missed my point, as you did most of my points.
I think perhaps I confused you...your last statement is a total mystery. I don't remember where I said that everyone should send their xrays to me. LOL!!!
I will look up the rating system again. I remember that they went with the lowest of the three votes, but that may have changed. That would certainly be a step in the right direction if they did.
Your "breeding earlier" idea goes out the window.....remember that thing called a BREED SURVEY? How about KOER KLASSE? That doesn't happen until they're.......drumroll............TWO YEARS OLD!
The reason I see for certifying at 12mos is b/c it gives a better genetic idea...and the idiot American owner doesn't have the extra 12mos to F up the dog's hips.
So what if most of the dogs for breeding are OFA certified? What the hell does that have to do with the number of problems we have w/hips? You obviously missed my point, as you did most of my points.
I think perhaps I confused you...your last statement is a total mystery. I don't remember where I said that everyone should send their xrays to me. LOL!!!
I will look up the rating system again. I remember that they went with the lowest of the three votes, but that may have changed. That would certainly be a step in the right direction if they did.
by Rezkat5 on 07 March 2009 - 22:03
The way I see it, is that the dogs are done young, because a GSD cannot be bred in Germany without a hip score, elbow score, working title, and conformation rating.
If the dog was in training, one would want to know if it has good hips and elbows from the breeding stand point.
In the U.S.A. sadly a dog can and are bred without any hip or elbow ratings.
Granted a lot are rated, but there are still far too many that are bred without and too young.
At least in Germany, there is some sort of regulating when it comes to breeding, and not just with GSD's.
Kathy
If the dog was in training, one would want to know if it has good hips and elbows from the breeding stand point.
In the U.S.A. sadly a dog can and are bred without any hip or elbow ratings.
Granted a lot are rated, but there are still far too many that are bred without and too young.
At least in Germany, there is some sort of regulating when it comes to breeding, and not just with GSD's.
Kathy
by july9000 on 07 March 2009 - 23:03
But we do prelims..I never wait 24 months before I do X-Rays..The only thing is OFA don't certify before24..but you can send prelim before..that's what a lot of breeders I know do..
The more people breed to certify dogs the less we are going to see hip and elbow dysplasia..but we have to do it and
And yes ..maybe I'm a little touchy
I apologize..
The more people breed to certify dogs the less we are going to see hip and elbow dysplasia..but we have to do it and
And yes ..maybe I'm a little touchy
I apologize..
by SchHBabe on 08 March 2009 - 01:03
I'm glad I discovered the PennHIP method. Takes the subjectivity out of the equation.
by Michele on 08 March 2009 - 05:03
http://www.offa.org/hipprelim.html
Reliability of Normal Prelimiminary Evaluations is high according to the information posted on OFA's web site. Normal Hips at 7 - 12 months is considered 93.8% reliable.
Michele
Reliability of Normal Prelimiminary Evaluations is high according to the information posted on OFA's web site. Normal Hips at 7 - 12 months is considered 93.8% reliable.
Michele
by SchHBabe on 08 March 2009 - 07:03
Michele, I would respectfully disagree. Unfortunately OFA Prelims are not so good at predicting whether or not a GSD will develop DJD (Degenerative Joint Disease). Hip dysplasia only means a poorly formed hip, in and of itself. Dyslasia will likely lead to DJD, but dysplasia is merely a means to an end. I used to be on the OFA bandwagon myslelf until I raised and trained a GSD that got Normal/Fair ratings on Elbow/Hip OFA Prelims at 1 year of age only to get Dysplastic rating on all 4 joints just one year later! I realized then that I needed a better "early warning system" than OFA Prelims. I had previously owned a GSD that had Normal/Fair ratings at 1 year and then turned out Normal/Good at 2 years so I had been optomistic. I'll not make that mistake again.
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