Question on what you'd do in this case - Page 2

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by Bob McKown on 24 February 2009 - 21:02

As the breeder you still have a responsibility to the litter you breed and saying well I sold them it,s out of my hands isn,t a release of your responsibilty to a litter you created. If the new owner gives this dog a new home and wants the papers pick up where your responsibilty is clear at the age of 2 if the dog OFA,s in the range of normal and gains a preformance title supply the paper work(possibly for a nominal fee) I,d enter into a new contract with the new owner and keep track of your litters better. 

Uber Land

by Uber Land on 24 February 2009 - 21:02

this dog has a confusing history.
She was not bred by gerdeshaus gsd.  her mother, her and her brother were payment for another dog gerdeshaus was selling.  gerdeshaus sold the dog as a pup, I was told that owner returned her, and gerdeshaus resold her.  so for all I know, gerdeshaus has sold and made money on this dog twice. 

the 2nd person who was sold this dog never came back to pick up the papers.  they then turned around and gave the dog away.  and she may have been given away again. This poor girl has made the rounds on craigslist.

JMO, gerdeshaus is responsible for this dog and placed her in this situation.  the dog has a chance at a good home, but the home wants to titled her and eventually breed her after health test and titles, so they would like to have the papers. I don't see what the big deal is with handing over papers and lifting the limited reg after the dog is OFA'd.


by Bob McKown on 24 February 2009 - 21:02

Again after she passes OFA and gains a preformance title then who ever the papered owner is should come to a deal with the present owner of the dog, I would not just hand them over now...

London

by London on 24 February 2009 - 21:02

Somewhat off topic, but how can the breeder just give papers to someone new without proof of sale (to the new owner, or back to the breeder)? Does the AKC allow this? What's to prevent breeders from simply getting new papers, with new owners listed? Given the number of disputes we see, wouldn't the AKC have safeguards in place? I'm assuming that even though the papers were not picked up, the buyer was registered as the owner.

by getreal on 24 February 2009 - 22:02

As long as the dog is able to be positively identified, you can spend the $45 filiing fee, go to the courthouse and get legal title transferred to you. In some states, judges will do it on abandonment. After you have the court order, submit it to the registry and the registering organization will pass full registration over to you.

I have had to do this in the past with some horses that I sold and were never paid for. I filed in the state that I lived in for two, but one I had delivered to Mississippi, and I had to go file in their home county. I was able to get the horses back, but not the papers until then. AKC and UKC still have to follow court orders also. Works the same way on vehicles.

Later, I determined that the one that I filed for in MS was still registered to me. Oh well, better safe than sorry.

Best wishes,

Jerry

by hellsbeast02 on 24 February 2009 - 22:02

Okay guys, I am not going to go into any details but have been in touch with both Gerdeshaus and the Buyer. The story is not really as it appears, and I won't go into detail but am getting it worked out. I do believe that Gerdeshaus will do what is best for Fiona. The owner tried to do what was best but it jumped up and bit her on the ass, so that is also understood. I don't think that unless the whole story is explained any of you should take sides. Remember taking sides is easy until you hear the whole story. I am the one that has Fiona now and I am currently working with Gerdeshaus regarding this dog, afterall I notified them immediately when I heard they had been looking for her.  Until we hash all this out I will not bad mouth or speak ill of anyone and I hope you respect this as the better way to deal with it.

Respectfully,
Debbie
Texas


ZVZW

by ZVZW on 24 February 2009 - 22:02

Whoever has this pup, as long as the parents are both AKC registered, even if the breeder did not give them papers or the prior owner did niot can now get AKC papers on this dog! If the sire was ever AKC that will surely help to, but you do not have to have that done. Call them you will learn about this new policy.

Jerry

London

by London on 24 February 2009 - 22:02

Thanks for that info Jerry, but I'm curious, does that not mean a person can steal a dog, and somewhere down the line go to court and claim abandonment for new papers? Say that they found it? If the original owners move or do not report the dog as stolen, there is really no way to prove anything else. Now, if I were a breeder with a contract stating that the dog be returned to me if the original owner no longer wanted the dog, how strong would that contract be down the road in such a situation?

by getreal on 24 February 2009 - 22:02

All parties will be served with summons. Will be the last known address, so as long as you keep your address updated with the registry, you as a breeder would receive summons. In all the cases that I dealt with, the only party that showed up was a bank that had actually loaned money against the horse. He was part of the collateral listed in their loan documents? Don't ask me how. In that case, the judge offered them to pay me the oustanding amount due (Had a contract and record of payments received) plus a daily rate that the state allowed for board and feed. They wouldn't use my records for the care. Bank passed and dropped their petition.

I have never dealt with stolen dogs, but if it one were stolen, I would assume that as long as you file a report identifying the dog, send it to the registry certified w/return receipt, they should at the least, notify you. I wouldn't count on it, and just try to sue them, it would be cost prohibitive.

Contracts aren't worth the paper that they are written on 9 times out of 10. Courts will normally enforce a first right of refusal, but in most states, it would be the current price another active buyer is willing to pay (fair & reasonable compensation). (If the party has a willing buyer, you would have to pay that price. Courts in this area have struck down prices set in the contracts when it was able to be proven that they were unreasonably low.ie. original purchase price or lower) It depends on the state that the transaction occurred in. And if you meet someone halfway in a different state, then it falls to interstate commerce, and gets gray. I would avoid that issue altogether.

If you want a valid contract, pay an attorney to draw it up under your jurisdiction and only allow buyers to pick up from you. If you act as a shipping agent in any way, then a decent attorney would be able to null the contract.

BTW, I am not an attorney, so please defer to your local laws and jurisdiction, and consult a local attorney. (disclaimer)

Best wishes,

Jerry





by Rory Brady on 24 February 2009 - 23:02

First of all, let me, without going into details say a few things.

I am very close to this situation.  Here are the facts as I know them.

•The second owner did not know that the dog was not bred by Gerdeshaus.  The second owner was under impression that it was a Gerdeshaus breeding.
•The dog was sold, resumably as a young puppy and came back to Gerdeshaus because the first owner said she was food aggressive.
•The dog was again sold for $1800 to an individual who had a specific use in mind for the dog.  The dog was going to be trained as an assistance dog.
•On the day of pickup, Gerdehaus did not have registration papers for the dog.
•It was mentioned that a transfer paper would have to be gotten.
•Then again, it was mentioned by phone that the previous owner might not have sent the papers back, so they would wait and see if the previous owner did before spending money on a transfer.
•The second owner contacted Mrs. Gerdes and asked for a list of vets in the area to do OFA prelims.  The list never came.
•The second owner asked about papers again, and nothing was ever done, sent or said about papers, even though, the breeder had contact info for this person.
•The second owner "did not pick up the papers" because although she was aware the dog was registered, she was not aware who had the paperwork and was never told.
•The dog was not intended for breeding, but was intended to be an assistance dog.
•When the second owner became ill, and could no longer handle Fiona, she *GAVE* Fiona to a woman named Michelle, who said she trained dogs in Arizona for the police departments.  She thought this would be a good home for Fiona.
•Not that long after that, a friend told the second owner that Fiona was on craigslist.  The second owner was quite angry, assuming that she had given the dog to someone who would properly care for, work with, nurture and train the dog.
•The second owner wrote a post on craigslist calling the lady she *GAVE* the dog to, Michelle, a liar, and expressing frustration.
•Michelle told the second owner that she couldn't keep the dog because she had to go back to work.
•Due to the second owner's illness she could not keep the dog and therefore could not take her back.
•The second owner was heartbroken to find the dog again on craigslist.
•The second owner then heard from a friend that a person was trying to get their hands on the dog and that Michelle had decided to keep the dog...
•The second owner decided, "all's well that end's well, and I hope they have a great life together."
•Today, the second owner was contacted by the woman who has the dog now.  She was quite shocked to hear that Michelle claimed that the dog was sold for $100 which was not the case, since the dog was given away for free.  She was also shocked to find out that Michelle had told the current owner that she had nine days to pack up the house and get rid of the dog because her husband wasn't going into the service.

I don't believe Gerdeshaus was dishonest regarding the papers, really.  I believe there was a miscommunication somewhere along the line.  Since Fiona was not to be bred and was to be an assistance dog, once it was plain that the papers weren't available, the second owner quit asking.

This person should not be criticised for trying to do the right thing by Fiona.  She believed that Fiona was going to a good home, Michelle, and that turned out not to be the case.  She also sent a letter to the current owner releasing all ownership rights.

She was given a bill of sale, which she gave to Muchelle.

So, I think both Gerdeshaus and the second owner are






 


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