Breeding or training, Nerves or drives? - Page 2

Yes Christopher, your last post is what I am seeing ALOT of.  Too much drive and weak nerves, they will bite but when pressed come off or get weak in the bite. The dogs that can't stay focused on the bite enough to get over the other distractions on the field. Not enough brains behind all of that energy. Those are the dogs I wouldn't take out in public. The people that I know that have them don't, it's out of the kennel to the field and back to the kennel.

I have a friend with a dog with over the top drives.  He loves it.  I look at it askance.  Yes, this dog will do anything for that tug/ball.

Yet in trying to teach this dog the hurdle and wall, I see the drives getting in the way.  He uses the toy to entice the dog to jump, and scale.  The dog is so focused on the toy, he never sees the jump, or wall.  I fear he'll injure himself.  He'll jump, but never takes his eyes off the toy, causeing him to jump sideways, he hits the sides, knocks the jump over.....

Same with the wall.  He doesn't seem to realize the wall is 'high'.  He'll go over and off the sides, turn about half way up and leap for the toy.

To me, his super high drive makes it hard for him to settle and see what he's doing.

 Would the jump and wall be handler error in the way it was introduced (with a toy), or is this normal with very drivey dogs?

Having both, a dog with lower and another with higher thresholds, I can, for personal purposes, agree that a little bit of "extra" drive and ease of training is really no trade-off for solid nerves. My nervier dog, by all accounts, is very easy to work with on the field, for obedience and protection both, easy to train, not soft but pliable with corrections, and by no means is he a weak dog, but I find it more difficult to relate to him and he is constantly pacing at home and unable to calm down. He is no nonsense and gets the job done, however--and will work tirelessly for hours on end. I think this is something that is important with a lot of sport trainers and police trainers now. My higher threshold dog is more bonded to me, but more difficult to train and handle (mainly because he is even higher drive than the other one), and for a lot of purposes he is more useless because it required way too much time to get his obedience to a workable level, but I do love his company, and he obeys me for me. 

I think modern times has called for these higher drive, low trigger dogs, whether it's for better or worse. It might really help if breeders don't lose track of things, though.

Well there are more variables then just Drive and Nerves to take into concideration. My dog is Dominant but he has a high pack drive and is very willing to please, thus making him easy to handle and train. He is not as social or as free with his affection as I'd like but at least he is a willing worker. If he was handler agro or too independant, I wouldn't like him nearly as much.

I personally like a dog that has strong environmental nerves, high workability, solid prey and strong fight drive. The threashold that people are talking about would that be considered defense? I dont think you need to have a dog that fires off or looks at people as bad, I train my dogs and clients dog with a high level of obedience. the OB also transfers over to the bite work. I dont want my dog deciding who to bite that is my decision, I want him to go when I say go and stop when I say. Even police dogs should have the kind of training that they bite, bark sit, shit or whatever on command. Lack of good steady training is why people depend too much on drives. When looking at a young dog look for strong nerves, desire to please, mouth(willing to bite) and look for the fight in the pup, and yes for working you need drive. But remember without good nerves you can have all the drive in the world but you will always come up short.

EisenFaust, I agree 100% and look for the same things. Enviranmentally stable is at the very top of PSA needs list. My dog can't piss or shit when on leash (or when off leash working), I wont allow it. I can do a send away and when he is away, give him the potty command and he will, same as a down or anything else. I like your style. LOL

Dogs that have more drive than brains is incorrect German Shepherd breeding! It was developed for one purpose and one purpose only....that is sport and sport training!! Police breeders are not breeding for this type of dog, herding people are not breeding for this type of dog, familyies that have pets don't have a need for this type of dog.....No it is about sport. The Sch sport and Sch sport judging, especially at higher levels, has caused this type of dog to evolve. This is one of the reasons that the sch trial is no longer a barometer of breeding traits like it used to be. The flashy, super fast, "sport " of Sch, rewards this type of dog, if it is trained correctly. Unfortunately, if this type of dog doesn't get into this type of advanced hands the dog becomes a liabilty in some cases and a nusance in most. This is the antithesis of true shepherd breeding as the shepherd dog should be able to go to any home and make an easy adjustment to the home. This has always been the case until the last 15 or so years, when people started breeding high drive dogs that  requires specialist/experts to handle easily. This is malinois breeding and not shepherd breeding and another example of people breeding to an extreme to accomplish something(like show people). Wrong wrong wrong!! 

Dogs that have more drive than brains is incorrect German Shepherd breeding!

This sounds good on the surface, but what does it really mean? Can you give us a couple of REAL LIFE examples of dogs like this? I have been around working GSD all of my 42 years on this earth and have never seen this.

Dogs that have more drive than brains is incorrect German Shepherd breeding! It was developed for one purpose and one purpose only....that is sport and sport training!! Police breeders are not breeding for this type of dog

Really? Can you point these breeders out? Can you name ONE GSD that is working anywhere in the US or EU that does not have a sport dog in the first two or three generations? How about one that does not have a sport titled parent?

 

Unfortunately, if this type of dog doesn't get into this type of advanced hands the dog becomes a liabilty in some cases and a nusance in most. This is the antithesis of true shepherd breeding as the shepherd dog should be able to go to any home and make an easy adjustment to the home.

Any home? Are you sure about that? IMO, no breed is able to go in any home. Would you place a GSD in a home with a 700lb man that lived in a 300 square foot apartment in the middle of New York City?

This type of reasoning is a far bigger threat to the GSD than sport training. A GSD is not the dog for everyone; he is supposed to be a working dog that has a job. And just like you don’t give a high powered sports car or a handgun to a teenager, you don’t give a GSD to certain people.

This has always been the case until the last 15…