REALITY CHECK-What is valued more??? OR, Has More Value! - Page 2

Personally yes service dog are valued more as they save and protect lives. But I believe it has a lot to do with the owner/handler. I have trained a few police dogs in dual purpose and narcotic but can not certifty them due to I am not a LEO. Does that make my dogs any less? Nope cause they were sold to LEO and they Certify them. Same dog  different handlers.

EK

BUT, I also want to know my dog(s) will find me or someone else if lost, and that if an intruder assaults me or my family, my dog ain't going to looking for a sleeve to bite.

Working with the understanding that all dogs are individuals and as has been discussed in another thread ...

Schutzhund is a sport.  Like many sports it is pursued with various degrees of intensity by different people for different reasons.  Competitors have their goals.  Breeders have their goals.  Hobbiest like myself have their goals. 

If you want a dog to search and rescue, you train your dog to search and rescue.  Here is a link (http://sardog.org/) to a website that discussed the different types of scent following a dog can do and different types of searches they can do.  No where in there do they discuss 3 legs, two corners and two articles, of either wood, leather or carpet. 

If you want your dog to protect you from home invasion or bodily harm that to me is a Personal Protection Dog and the training for them is quite different than for the Schutzhund bite work.  Lot more emphasis on civil vs prey.

Now, since this conversation seems to also circle back to titles, I'll reiterate.  Titles give me a baseline and a start point from which to ask questions about the parents of a prospective pup.  A breeder who can sit down with me and discuss the work that went into titling their dogs, whether it be Sch, PPD, K-9, SAR, etc is going to be someone I will continue dialogue with, because in theory, they know the dog they bred and can talk to me about why they expect, what they expect from the pups.

ETA:  I'd agree with EK, that the level of training and hopefully work ethic in a service dog like a K-9, SAR, drug dog, guide dog would tend to make that individual animal of more value.  But it's as much the work of the owner/handler you're investing in as well as the animal himself.  

Then of course, there are people who believe that the perfect topline, the perfect pigment, the perfect gait are worth top value above all else.   Different strokes, different folks.

BIGSWILL:  YOU HIT THE NAIL ON THE HEAD,,  i applaud your post.

HAD EXPERIENCE WITH BOTH BASTIN AND PIROLS OFFSPRINGS...BLAAACHH...

TITLES ARE GREAT FOR SPORT ENTHUSIASTS..BUT IT DOESN NOT PROVE THE DOGS TOTALITY.

GIVE ME A WHOLE LITTER OF WORKING DOGS OUT OF LINES THAT PASS IT ON,  and can be worked each pup and dog for the purpose of what the dog can be,,, a protector, a companion, a herder, a dog that has a nose, brain, ears and intelligence to do as he is trained to do and do it. Health brings all this to the forefront. and a dog that acts out of natural and instinctual behavioural is far more valued to Me.      MY OPINION....

YR

GIVE ME A WHOLE LITTER OF WORKING DOGS OUT OF LINES THAT PASS IT ON,  and can be worked each pup and dog for the purpose of what the dog can be,,, a protector, a companion, a herder, a dog that has a nose, brain, ears and intelligence to do as he is trained to do and do it. Health brings all this to the forefront. and a dog that acts out of natural and instinctual behavioural is far more valued to Me.      MY OPINION....

Go YR! That's what the GSD is! Whether you title your dog in Sch, train them in SAR or police work, every one of their puppies should be able to do atleast one of the above, no matter what their parents did. It's all in the training, breeding, and utility of our beautiful german shepherd.

-Emily.

         Are you training your dog for self satisfaction and a SchH title, or are you training your dog in the off chance that, someday, your dog/Kitkat team of two will be called to be search and rescue heroes

     This is what I'm talking about!!! Your dog should be able to do both. 

by Two Moons on 13 January 2009 - 01:01	Two Moons Posts: 3063 Joined: Tue Apr 10, 2007 07:21 pm
I hear a very tiny violin somewhere off in the corner of my mind. Why can't you simply ask, whats better tittles or a dog in the field?

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Dogs on an individual basis may well be able to do both Schutzhund and SAR, or MORE, but the handler only has the time, money, energy, and two achy knees to do one specialized skill set.  I cannot afford to do SAR, I don't have time to do SAR...the super nice club I would join if I wanted to do SAR is about 50 miles and an hours drive away as opposed to the super nice Schutzhund club just minutes away in town. 

If you want to train for both, go for it!  I've heard some SAR clubs don't want protection trained dogs in their organization, but not all of them feel that way, so don't let it stop you!  You go, girl! :-)

*****If you are training a working dog, (and there are SO MANY "TRAINERS " here for schH SPORT,)       "DOES SPORT" , 'AT it's FINEST LEVEL,' MEAN "The Dog Works?"                        IF  called upon to work, COULD YOUR DOG WORK????   Does their schH3 title mean, they are, "Capable of the JOB they were trained for?  Will they be able to find the Missing person and Protect you from the person ,or persons that are putting you in harms way?*****

YES.  My personal training buddy with only a BH not only could work, but has "worked".  Personal experiences with my training buddy Arwin (who is from my own breeding, btw):   A moose charged my 12 year old daughter, the moose started running UPhill, towards my kid who had the kennel panels to her back.  MY DOG stopped the moose charge by throwing herself in front of my frozen and screaming kid, barking like a machine gun in the mooses face,

Continued, darn it----

stopping the charging moose in her tracks, then turning her and herding her back downhill while my daughter escaped. 

I think Schutzhund training makes a dog better trained, more obedient, more responsive, more confident than he would have been without the training.  It's not easy to face a  man wielding a stick, even if it's not "real".  If the dog is nervy...you know what?  ...most people who train in the sport and are watching can see it, especially at the local club where that dog is seen on a regular basis.  This is also a help for a breeder.   I also think SchH training gives the dog a basis to "generalize" to a real situation much better than a similar dog with no training. Generalize means, going from a concept or action to a another concept or action that is in some way similar.  A think a dog who has opposed a man running at him with a stick in his hand and a sleeve on his arm, may be able to generalize to a man running at him with a stick in his hands and no sleeve on his arm, depending on the courage of the individual dog. 

>>Will they be able to find the Missing person and Protect you from the person ,or persons that are putting you in harms way?<<<

I am confused however a bit by this...if you are training your dog with a club, surely you know that Schutzhund footstep to footstep tracking and SAR tracking are different and specialized, therefore, it is not fair to ask this question?  I've been told the SchH dog could probably go from SchH title to SAR tracking training more easily than the dog who is SAR certificated could go to SchH style tracking training due to the fact it is probably easier to get a Sch trained dog to lift it's head to air scent than to get an SAR trained dog to drop it's head for footstep to footstep tracking.   I'm not an SAR person myself, so I have to go by what others who train in that tell me.  Footstep to footstep is worth doing for titling purposes, however, because it measurably shows whether or not the dog has the ability.

Again, it's all in what you want to do, have time for, can afford.  It's the handler's needs that usually limits the dog.  Veronica

BTW, I apologize to those who are far more knowlegable than I am and who are "students" forever engaged in learning more, like Shelley or Molly, that I addressed these questions to the best of my ability, while not being extremely experienced in Schutzhund training myself as they and others like them are.  I recognize I have a lot to learn.  That's why I don't usually comment on this kind of thread, but for some reason, my fingers dragged me to the keyboard!  Veronica

I often ask myself the same question.  Especially when there is so much emphisis on the bite work.  Does it really help the working ablility of a SAR dog, cadaver dog, therapy dog ect. when high high drives are breed for? or the perfect red and black  coat?  Are our dogs not much more that Tinkerbells on a leash giving us a self important ego for our scores, titles and rankings? 

I hope that there are others out there more skilled than I that are breeding and training for these real jobs.  We enjoy a sport and the beauty of our GSDs and attempt to preserve the instincts to produce an animal that a skilled trainer can mold into the dogs they need. 

Every dog has intrinsic value to its owner as a companion.   There is no monetary value here.  In a way they are all therapy dogs, giving us a reason to get up off our butts and play, learn and experience unconditional love.