Don't understand Sch scoring at all? - Page 2

Olympic Style Judging the Masters is the answer

i was informed that the protection judge is the dvg president??

Obedience and Protection: dhv/FCI Judge Hartmut Beckmann

http://www.awmachampionship.com/officials.html

Some video's can been found here:  http://www.starkepfoten.com/events/AWMA2008Nationals.htm

After listening to some of the barking i now remember why I have  GSDs.  LOL. I have to agree that the judging was out of a Cracker Jack box. Every body gets a prize. Christmas came early. It is really hard to place the entrants in the right order when scored like this. To bad for the good teams that he left no separation. He is off my list of judges to have or go to.  

Quote: Don't pretend to know anything about Sch scoring. It just seems to me that the sport somewhat penalizes stronger dogs? What I saw as stronger dogs or a better "picture" overall was scored lower.

The scoring does not penalize the stronger dog. But the scoring does emphasize control. Schutzhund is not a “hardest dog” contest or a hardest hitting dog contest. Many dogs look very strong until they have the brakes applied and control is asked for, then things start to fall apart.  What good is a high horsepower car that has crappy brakes and sketchy handling?  Unusable power just puts you in a ditch or a lower score.

Quote: My biggest question was why someone who needed 3 commands to get their dog under control scored so much higher than another handler who took three commands to get their dog under control. I see recalling and outing as the same thing, control during bitework, but obviously is scored differently.

When three commands are given ALL the points are lost for the exercise. Since all of the exercises are scored differently three commands in given in one exercise do not cost the same points as three commands in another exercise. Did I explain that clearly?

Quote: Olympic Style Judging the Masters is the answer

That would be nice! But you have to keep in mind that the AWMA does not have a huge purse and can’t afford to bring in a bunch of judges. If there were Olympic style judging the AWMA would have to bring in at least 6 judges. That just isn’t in the budget for a club of 120 members. That would be about $25 per club member and the AWMA dues are only $30.

Personally, I think that Hartman had a hell of a tough weekend. The dogs in the top 10 were all great dogs with excellent training and anyone of those dogs could have won. Helmut was put in a difficult position of splitting some very thin hairs.

But most importantly the competitors were satisfied with the competition overall. It was a great weekend with lots of camaraderie and I didn’t notice any bickering or arguing. But I guess that nonsense always comes after the competition by people that weren’t there.

<<<It just seems to me that the sport somewhat penalizes stronger dogs? What I saw as stronger dogs or a better "picture" overall was scored lower.>>>

As Christopher said, it is about control.   That being said, the fact remains that a strong, powerful dog may so impress a judge that lesser control does not count against the dog as much as it should. 

Refusing to "out" after three commands is an "automatic" DQ. Finish, kaput, per the rules.  But, the rules call for a dog that leaves the field to be DQ'd, too.

Christopher is also correct that this was a competition with very excellent quality dogs and handlers, such that ninth place carries a score that often puts a person on a podium.

Olympic-style judging is simply impracticable for most non-profit organizations.  USA has only used it when it was connected to the judges college, so they all had to be there, anyway and the cost was born by the organization, rather than the hosting club(?).   Host clubs cannot afford, generally speaking, bringing in three judges just for the OB and protection, and another three for the tracking.  The club must pay for transportation, food for several days, hotel rooms for several days, judges' appreciation gifts, etc.  for each judge.  It adds up to quite a bit when there is only ONE judge, let alone multiple judges.  

  Olympic-style judging is fine for a private, well-funded individual or corporation to put on.  When it can afford thousands of dollars to compeititors, it can certainly  afford to take care of multiple judges.   Very, very few clubs have that kind of funding, or club members willing to outlay that kind of funding.

Good to meet you, btw, Chrisotpher.  Your little girl is a doll!!

Thanks Christopher. That did explain thngs a little better. Like I said, I kind of looked at it as my impression of the "overall picture"

Having a PSA and Ring sport background, my impression and interpretation of "control" is a little different, as they are different in every sport, I guess.

BTW, the purpose of this thread was only MY opinion on the dogs as I saw it and hoping to learn a little about the scoring. This was in no way intended to discredit or badmouth any dog, handler, trainer, or judge. I just wish I could have been up there to enjoy the event and learn something new.

Take care

Christopher, I agree with Nia.  You're little girl is adorable, best fish's name I've ever heard!  It was nice to meet and talk with you.