Kaleef dogs - Page 2

Sunsilver: July, ask Louise about the prevalence of 'sudden death syndrome' in American lines shepherds. She's the one who told me about this.........I believe that is what happened to Dallas, and according to Louise, who championed many American GSD's before switching to German lines, it is an inheritable problem and appears all too frequently in American lines!

Having been in the breed since 1964, I have only to look at Dallas' bloodlines to see that they are replete with dogs lacking in constitutional vigor and having a seeming "death wish".

I'm not speaking out of ignorance or prejudice as my own Covy's Pan of Tucker Hill was sired by Jimmy Moses' own Zeus of Fran-Jo http://www.pedigreedatabase.com/gsd/pedigree/403568.html out of Covy's Felita of Tucker Hill http://www.pedigreedatabase.com/gsd/pedigree/404830.html (a daughter to Lakeside's Gilligan's Island http://www.pedigreedatabase.com/gsd/pedigree/403361.html--who died at the age of 3). 

I bred Pan to my Covy-Tucker Hill's Talisman (by Eko-Lan's Paladen http://www.pedigreedatabase.com/gsd/pedigree/403224.html ex Tucker Hill's Halo of Lakeside  http://www.pedigreedatabase.com/gsd/pedigree/403525.html, a litter sister to GV Lakeside's Harrigan http://www.pedigreedatabase.com/gsd/pedigree/403573.html--who also died young). From a daughter of Pan and Talisman, I witnessed my first sudden death due to "toxic gut syndrome" (torsion at the mesenteric root).

FYI, Covy-Tucker Hill's Talisman was a litter sister to Covy-Tucker Hill's Turtle Dove  http://www.pedigreedatabase.com/gsd/pedigree/403588.html and dam to Covy's Durango of Tucker Hill http://www.pedigreedatabase.com/gsd/pedigree/403877.html (died young) and the sire to Karagin's Crusader http://www.pedigreedatabase.com/gsd/pedigree/403895.html (died young). Crusader's most prominant son was Woodacre's Dakota  http://www.pedigreedatabase.com/gsd/pedigree/404725.html(died young--after siring a whole shitpile of dogs)--many of which died young (http://www.pedigreedatabase.com/gsd/progeny/404725.html). Dakota's famous grandson was Nike Clayfield Andretti http://www.pedigreedatabase.com/gsd/pedigree/449427.html (died young) who had a profoundly deleterious effect upon the breed.

Need I continue?

 Im sorry you had bad experiences with the Am. GSD  lines but the dogs you are pointing are long gone and many breeders have taken the steps to improve health and longivity.  

Dallas Dam lived to be 13th!!..Not too bad. I think 10 is too young but it is not young in itself..not everybody can live a 100 years..

Go see the GSD review site..there is a link on 13th club..you will see that in fact some very influencal dog live a very long life...A lot of Covy Tucker Hill too.

I have a bitch with Andretti 4th generation..she is 7..her mother still alive and her grand-mother died at 12..I hope she lives up to 15..I love her so much!!

I'm glad if it is better for you with the german line..I have nothing against them..i just prefer the Am type..

Louise gets it right.  Look at all the stud dogs (pillars of the breed) that died young which the American Shepherd breed was based on (just take for one good example of many, Scorpio and many of his progeny and their progeny and grand progeny, etc., etc.).  Then there is Harrigan and many others.  Many know about all the deaths from gastric torsion and splenic torsion.  Few know about the many sudden deaths due to mild aortic arch stenosis (can show up on autopsy) and cardiac conductance disorders (which are very tough to DX upon autopsy). 

The source for all these causes of early death are the German dogs which were imported many years ago.  All these genetics defects are still in the German lines back in Europe, but just not as close up or intense in the pedigrees.  So if the German and European breeders aren't careful they will establish this same genetic concentration of early death genes due to their overly close line breeding they are now engaging in. Bottom line is that uniformed breeding of beautiful GSDs of which very little is really known about what their pedigrees carries great risks of destroying the basic immunity, health, longevity, vitality, fertility and lifespan of the GSD.  Ask any experienced and successful farmer that breeds expensive cattle about too much inbreeding or close linebreeding.

The difficult task at hand is to know enough about available studs to do outcross breeding, or do low intensity line breeding once at the 4-5 or 5-5 level.  It is hard to get good conformation and type this way, but it can be done if one can use prepotent sires and dams and breeds the same phenotypes together (type to type outcross breeding).

Now it would be interesting to find out if Louise has seen real vitality and health in her two excellent GSD males that she obtained Sch III degrees on, since they are not closely bred. 

It's not a matter of "preference"--I just got sick and tired of seeing them present and often die at emergency clinics and other hospitals where I worked.

Take a look at the 7-generation pedigree for Dallas: http://www.pedigreedatabase.com/gsd/pedigree/7/509439.html Despite their being gone for several generations, if you were to do a COI for Dallas, you would find the "presence" and influence of many of his ancestors to be more dominant than it would appear on the surface.

Wallace has produced some beautifly confirmed GSDs with excellent fronts.  But alas he is a son of Scott Deodatus, rumored by many top breeders in Germany to have died from gastric torsion.  If true and it appears to be, then it wouldn't be surprising to find this problem in his progeny.

Preston: Now it would be interesting to find out if Louise has seen real vitality and health in her two excellent GSD males that she obtained Sch III degrees on,

Some important considerations for longevity should be given to the establishment of a stong immune system and constitutional vigor using a minimized vaccination protocol (with no polyvalent vaccines) and the feeding a raw diet.

When asking myself why I have been so fortunate with my own dogs, I cannot help but factor in these considerations as I have followed this family for 6 generations.

Good hips/elbows (SV and OFA)--DNA DM negative.

So what if they are not-flavor-of-month VA dogs? They are healthy, V-rated, titled, remarkably youthful in appearance and behavior, and have been selectively breed to produce soundness, longevity, health, freedom from reproductive problems.

Let's not talk about my guys--I'm surely not the "Lone Ranger". There must be numerous dogs similar to them in the USA. The problems lie with the breeders and buyers who want dogs who can win big in the show ring and carry the mystique of large, successful, commercial kennel names here in the USA and in Germany.

Bottom line is this.  A GSD breeder who wants super sound, healthy and good looking GSDs must march to his (her) own beat.  Typically this does not involve using the flavor of the month stud dog.   It involves careful consideration of a great deal of factors and maybe going a divergent rout. One good thing about the frequent use of the "top" GSDs as stud in Germany is that there are a lot of puppies to evaluate, allowing folks to find out which are the top producers for what they are looking for, such as certain compensatons needed to their bitch or bitchline.  If I ever breed my female again, my choice is to find the oldest stud dog available with the best producing record of traits she needs compensaton with.  And older stud dog has been around long enough to have provided useful information about his value producing.  I also would use a stud completely vetted with normal hips and elbows, normal ekg, normal TLI, normal thyroid, no free bleeding factors, and non carrier of DM, even if I had to pay for the tests.  I wouldn't want to use the stud if the owner wouldn't agree to have the tests done by his vet at my expense (prepaid). 

Arlette, this thread wandered from your question although the journey was interesting. All GSDs have German blood at some point since the breed originated in Germany. But yes, Jim and Sheree Moses use American showline dogs in their breeding program as does Kent Boyles since that is what they all want - American showring wins. Some of the Kaleef dogs are too extreme (and still win their CH), but some of them are capable of working as well as being American showring champions. You have to research the bloodline and look at the dogs to see if they are extreme or not. This is harder to do with American lines since a lot of them are not in any database I know of.  If what you want is a dog that can win in the American show ring, Kaleef or Kenlyn might get you there.

If you are serious about buying such a dog, go to the GSDCA National in Beaumont Texas in October. You will find a lot of breeders at that show, although they may not have puppies right now. You will also get to see the dogs that they want to show off. If you can tell an extreme dog from a normal dog, great. If you can't, see Linda Shaw's shawlein website. Just google it.  Helen Gleason is judging at the National this year and she has already said she wants normal looking GSDs who can trot - not run - in her ring. She has nothing against German dogs and uses them in her kennel. Wish I could go, should be fun. 

There are problems in all lines. I prefer the German dogs to the American, having had health problems with American GSDs. But there are problems in German lines too, although they do tend to be healthier and the puppy buyer tends to have a better chance of doing research on the dogs in the prospective German puppy's pedigree. Good luck.

anyone wanting to research american lines can goto the gsdca homepage at www.gsdca.org and also the gsdreview.com or gsdreviewed.com

 talk to the older breeders, the info is out there and easy to find if someone is willing to look.  there are pedigree databases for dogs who produce blue and livers, white color producers, long coat carriers and many other sites.  also you can not beat an older printed gsd book with articles by Ernest Loeb, Jimmy Moses and many of the important figures in importing and developing the breed in america. 

and alot of american dogs have also be added to this database.  it is a slow process, but more and more pedigrees are being submitted.  the majority of "regulars" on this board do not like american lines and many american breeders are ran off this board due to bashing.  This is more of an international type board, most people who come here breed the european style gsd, so of course you are going to see alot more of those type of pedigree's than you will american.  plus, it is not a secret that anyone who comes on here either looking at an american kennel, or are an american show style breeder, get the third degree from the other members and are treated quite unfairly.