Herding VS Schutzhund - Page 2

The SV rules do and always have specifically stated that an HGH is a working title for Koer, show and breed purposes. So yes. Also consider that in the early days of the breed Max kept what is called an "open" stud book meaning that "unregistered" animals would be admitted for breeding purposes. He specifically states ( I believe in one of his yearly letters) that the "well spring" to always go back to when there was need for improvement in the breed was active working herding dogs and that they could be admitted to the register.

Mystere I suspect you have never herded. Yes a herding title like any " sport" title including Schutzhund may ocassionally be gotten by a less deserving dog. In herding usually what I call robot dogs meaning they are directed every step of the way. But if you have ever seen a true herding dog work( such as seeing a clearheaded strong protection routine) you would never equate this with having a CD. And by the way there are dogs that do both - herd and schutzhund.

Schutzhund is supposed to be about obedience in drive.  If you truly want to understand obedience in drive I suggest you try herding.  Which do you think is more attractive -a helper doing a stylized dance the dog knows well or a flock of 3 or 30 or 300 sheep that decide to book it for that gate at the other end of the 100 acre pasture. Could you call your dog off that? That is obedience in drive and my answer is yes I can. Breed worthy. You bet your bippies.

I fully agree TIG after only wetting my dogs little feet in herding, it's tougher on the dogs than bitework. Certainly more athletesism is required. Is the HGH still the same as it always has been or has it also been watered up some? I don't believe it has been but I'm no expert, anybody know for sure? HGH is what tested the first GSdogs before Sch was even around. If it was good enough for Max, it's good enough for me.

There just isn't a way to get sheep to coreograph a routine for a dog, new things get thrown at him in an instant and he either has the sac for it or he doesn't, no decoys going light or harder on someones dogs, no lame excuses if the sheep trample the dog and he runs off the field. Sheep aren't always fair and they will test a dog harder, than a trainer will have a decoy push a new dog. In Sch we have the advantage to move as slow or fast as our dogs learn or are capable of, we can adjust the pressure to suit the dog, building slowly. With livestock there is a degree of uncertainty every time the dog engages.

 

Anyone interested in "real" tending-style herding - or HGH - should go to the HGH trial and conformation show Oct 4-5 at Ulf Kintzel's in NY.  It should be an excellent weekend.  http://www.whitecloversheepfarm.com/sh-home.htm

 

molly

 

Julia, You need to re-read my post, or get someone to translate it for you. I did not equate HGH to a CD. I was clearly referencing AKC herding. Make sure you know where you are jumping next time you leap. :-) As for your "suspicion" wrong again. :-)

Mystere,  You read my post wrong. I do NOT distinguish between AKC herding and the HGH. I have done both "styles" of herding and that is all it is a STYLE.  Herding is herding. Stock handling requires a set of basic skills.  You have to be able to move stock either by fetching or driving. "Tending ( a made up word) merely uses an elongated wear in the movement of stock. You have to be able to pen stock( in and out) and you have to be able to sort stock. Pretty much covers it.  Humans have stylized those skills but an out run is an out run whether it be a nice pear shape one done by a BC or a precise 90 degree squared Germanic corner  that a HGH dog will do to pick up stock ( and yes I have seen and worked with Ulf and seen his dogs do just such an "outrun" tho obviously the tending devotees would never call it that).

A good herding dog is a good herding dog and the course or courses or organizations(AKC, AHBA, USA etc) that his owner chooses to compete on and in have nothing to do with the fact that he/she is a good herding dog.  And back to the original question - yes a herding dog can be breed worthy. Once again in the SV system it specifically states that a HGH is sufficient for koer, show and breed purposes.  Since this is the U.S. and not Germany and we do things our own way in so many things FOR ME, I consider ALL herding titles ( not tests which are merely potentialities ) as evidence of a dogs working ability.   For years Fidelco consistently chose stock from the herding lines because they found those dogs to have the drive and bidability to be a guide dog.  Yet again another example of the "working" ability of herding dogs.

BTW my name is Beth.

Actually, there is another gal on this thread who is named Tina, and I think that is who Mystere was talking to when she said Tina. 

I tried herding with my old Tiekerhook dog.  (The border collie kind of herding, 3 sheep in a large arena).  The guy in charge was a great sales man and  would sell lessons in 8 week packages at a time.  When you would get towards the end of the 8 weeks, he would start schmoozing & tell you how great the dogs progress was.  My dog just wanted to grip, stop and hold the sheep.  That's it.  The sheepherder guy once brought his crook down hard on my dogs muzzle, big mistake, but at least the sheepherder learned not to do that again.   I felt really bad for the sheep, my dog drew blood more than once. 

I think I started the dog too late, he was 8 or 9 years old, and this was after schutzhund. 

I would like to see the HGH type of herding.  Is there video anywhere someone can link me to or a website where there is video?

 

 

Sue,  I bet Rezkat has a link to some HGH videos, maybe she'll see this and post some, I hope so.  Here's some still shots though.  Beth mentioned Ulf, this is his web site.

http://www.whitecloversheepfarm.com/sh-gallery.htm

On a side note, one of "my" pups just passed her first two herding tests over the weekend.  Not titles I know but I still think it's neat and she is out doing something!     (I know others own them now but they will always be "my" pups.   )

 

Congratulations on passing the herding tests, it's far from easy, as I learned when I tried my hand at it. 

What a wonderful site you linked me to!  It has very informative articles and great photos.  I've added it to my "favorites" and plan to spend time there reading those articles.

"With livestock there is a degree of uncertainty every time the dog engages."

 This may not always be the case. Most AKC style herding is done with "Dog Broke" sheep (tame). Sheep do become "dog-wise" also (sheep are used to dogs).

"My dog just wanted to grip, stop and hold the sheep. That's it. The sheepherder guy once brought his crook down hard on my dogs muzzle, big mistake, but at least the sheepherder learned not to do that again."

I had the same thing happen with my male, only did 2 private lessons. And trainer used a paddle!!!

Hi,

 

Unfortunately I do not have any links to any HGH videos.  There is some AKC C course type herding videos on you tube though.  Until you have seen it with a very large flock.

Like Molly said, I would highly recommend going to see the HGH in NY up close and personal.  IMO, I think that it is a very good breed test.   Dogs can be breed surveyed with the HGH title as well.  

Kathy