Training thread - Page 2

Don't you love Chris's warnings? LOL  So when you progress and he is an adult, what will you do to make him out? How did you get him to out initially? Wait him out and say it as he lets go, pick up on the collar, stick your finger in his butt? You already addressed the keyed up point. What will be the method you use to out him whe he gives you the finger on the sleeve?

I did the tug out thing the same as you and Baden did the instant regrip as well. I let it fly for awhile(glad he was at least outing at the word) and then made him hold the delay longer and longer. Now doing the same on the suit, hold that rebite off just a little longer each time and then I will start switching it up, quick ones with long waits, to keep himon his toes. I don't much care about nay sayers but it just got me thinking we all have different ideas and use different methods. May as well have a decent discussion on this damn board. My thoughts are, if it works for you and yours, who gives a rats ass what method it is or at what age you did it. People also cried fowl when my pup took stick hits at not quite 5 months, well if he couldn't handle it, I wouldn't have let it happen.

OK at the risk of sounding stupid... here goes. The dog I have now, I taught to out on a toy( stick actually), and it transfered over to the sleeve slick as you know what. The dog I had before would not out unless the helper was rock solid still(hard to do he was a big dog), he also was dirty going into the blind. I can't remember where I had heard this but it worked like a charm for him. He loved to swim but absolutely hated water sprayed in his face. I had the helper hold a mouthful of water and when I said out and he didn't , he got it spit in his face. It took only a couple of times and he'd out. Course if your dog is a hose nut like my old female this wouldn't work at all.

Thanks for posting Kari. That's the same way my dog was taught the out but apparently it's unfair to the dog and no compulsion should ever be used if your a "real" trainer. LOL It's uh too conflicting towards the decoy and the handler. Poor dog may never bite again if you do such a thing.

From day one the dog gets corrected and I say out at the same time, dog doesn't get a chance NOT to out. We can't make habbits of them needing 2 or 3 requests or you'll be needing 5-6 in trial and that's not going to cut it. My boys so amped up spitting the suit now for the rebite the correction isn't even an afterthought in his little head. Apparently some dogs get hectic or develop handler avoidance when you approach them but I really hardly pop my dog at all, just a little one like a low stem on the e to make sure he's paying attention. I'll do harder corrections sometimes durring OB. It can get a  little ugly with some dogs but mine caught on to the game rather quickly.

Hello...nobody else on this board has a dog that outs?

For those that use the pinch, and 'out means out', do you do it with a long line, or close to the dog?  Will being close travel down to the dog and begin his dislike you nearing him, and possible causing avoidance?  Will it begin the 'look back'  I see many dogs do?

If you use a long line, with you back in the background, does that keep your approaching them stress and avoidance free?

Or...am I way off base?

Novice asking questions.

Hi 4pack,

I didn't want to chime in because I'm trying to learn something for a change....:)

I thought I'd try something other than screaming and shoving my boot up my dog's arse.

Good post everyone.

Brent.

very nice questions macaw, im eager to hear the answer to those...

My dog was taught the out with the decoy correcting him when i said out.  I do think this method has turned him a little dirty though.  From then on, everytime our decoy goes to grab the leash, Duke goes after the hand after i out him.  When we were working on an escort and Duke came in too close to our decoy, he need him and got bit in the leg.  Luckily he wore his suit pants, but they happend to be the really thin ones. 

My oldest dog is my first Schutzhund dog.  Because of my inexperience, my helper also taught the out from the sleave.  My boy to this day, has a very nice and consistant out.

I'm lucky I think.

I've seen other out problems, like circling to avoid the handler when approaching, letting go and backing away when the handler approaches,  I've seen quick outs, but then immediate dirty rebites.

I'd also like to know what causes these reactions.  I'd think, you'd want your dog to find strength, support and comfort in your approach.  Not fear, or avoidance. 

When I was working this with my dog it depended on where we were.  I noticed that I was having a lot of problems with him letting go of the sleave after carrying it around, so I had a tab on the pinch and he only got one chance of "out"  the first few times, he was corrected IMMEDIATELY after the command, because I knew he was not going to out, so there wasn't any time for him to consider the consequences, it was out, and one breath after and then NO, correction "OUT" and this is not a nagging correction. 

I do want to be clear, that before we went to the sleeve, he was fully understanding the word :"out:" on the toy, so I technically tought the "out" on the toy, however I guess not good enough because he was a pain in the ass on the sleeve when it was HIS. 

When outing on the man, I had a long line and again anticipated that he would not out rather than give him the opportunity to do so.  Several times when I was far back like on a drive, my helper would grab the tab and wait for me to say out, and the helper corrected him if he did not out right away.

My dog is a pretty clear boy and he is not vrey sensative, so he can handle being corrected like this.  I can't say this will work on all dogs, and maybe the lookie loo backwards is from a sensative dog being corrected like that, I don't know.  When I see a lot of lookie loo backwards that is usually typical of too many call outs and too much routine training and not switching it up.

As far as corrections causing avoidance, I guess if you have a sensative dog that it could, but it really is going to depend on the dog.  My girl is pretty sensative to me and when I would correct her, she would lean further INTO me rather than away.  There is so much that depends on the temperament of your dog, that it is hard to tell someone how to work with compulsion, even though I train with pretty minimal compulsion, technically I guess it really is right?

Compulsion is not a bad thing, it just needs to be used correctly, such as when you are 100% sure that the dog KNOWS what he is supposed to do.  I am not all about banging something into the dog with the pinch collar (alot of people are) like I said earlier Jager knew OUT on the toy before we went to OUT on the sleeve.  When a dog knows something well enough to get it right 9 out of 10 times, then you can say they understand and you can use compulsion to reiterate that you MUST do what you are told now that you understand what we are talking about. 

The best thing is to work with an experienced club and helper who can evaluate what works for your dog after you have exhausted the best efforts to let the dog make the correct decision to get it right.

If you have ever been to one of Ivan's seminars he teaches the out on the toy by locking up and waiting, for a young puppy this doesn't take too long usually, and AS SOON as the dog lets go, FREE and rebite.  This is how I started the out on the toy, Jager was 6 months old when I got him and had ZERO manners, he was a bit unruley to say the least, so a slight ear pinch combined wth the wait on the toy worked very well in literally a few tries. 

Jager spits out any toy or ball as soon as I say OUT, even while running, where as Sasha is not so, she wants to run and act like an idiot and will only out when she comes to a stop and drops it in front of my feet, I think this has to do with the fact that Sasha is more sharp than Jager.

Anyhow I bet this is getting too long.....

I thoroughly enjoy the threads on training and behavior.

I wish there were more, I soak them up like a dry sponge.