Therapy dog - Page 2

 IMO whether or not a GSD would make a invaluable service or therapy dog may very well rest with the changes in the training methods used. Perhaps the latest training methods used in these programs are better suited for Labs so they have a better success rate. Also GSD's probably require more from the people they are placed with, always wanting to learn more and not wanting to settle into a routine as much as a Lab would. So the "control factor" rating makes complete sense to me. A GSD may require more effort to train and maintain but then again it might just be worth it in the end (an extraordinary dog:) Perhaps not a cost effective choice for specialized organizations who need to serve folks with limited budgets and limited working knowledge of dogs. But for the individual who wants what a GSD has to offer the extra effort might be worth it.

just a thought,

Susan

Susan,

Regarding methods....Most guide dog organization DO NOT USE food at all.  For obvious reasons.  Nor do they allow their puppy raisers to use it.

Most organizations are eclectic in their methods of training, as am I.

I have a friend who used to raise GSD's, now Beaucerons....She tried to place about 15 GSD's as service dogs(she has tons of experience, and a resume that won't quit.) before she figured out that it wouldn't work.

As an interesting note:  Most dogs specifically bred for color do not do well either.  They tend to be too "flighty", if you will.  IE, Chocolate Labs, etc...

I think alot of it has to do with our changing society...you know the one where you are a horrible, horrible person and abuser if you correct your children or your dog?  Yeah, that society.....

PS, it's not that GSD's can't do the tasks....they excell in the tasks....the main reason is because at 3-4 yrs of age, the dogs tend to become overprotective of the handlers....

Again, think about someone with a GSD who has paranoia issues....That dog is going to pick up on those issues, valid or not, and start "defending" it's pack....IE, the handler....

I think alot of it has to do with our changing society...you know the one where you are a horrible, horrible person and abuser if you correct your children or your dog?  Yeah, that society.....

This is what Im thinking - people have this attitude that if you are firm in anyway you are being cruel. Plus I would guess larger programs are under a lot of public scrutiny (particularly from organizations like PETA) so would have to use methods that are in keeping with these social trends - e.g. clicker, positive, 'anti-aversion' ... methods.  My GSDs have been very nice but there wasn't  a day that went by that they didn't test me to see just who was boss, waiting to get the chance to be the leader:)  I find it very easy to be clear I am the one who holds that position but with everyone telling you you're mean if you are "alpha" it's hard to keep a handle on the a strong willed & independent breed like GSDs.  

GSD in my book are capable of anything - not necessarily every GSD but as a whole the breed is.  Though i completely understand why a program would move away from using GSD's in favor of softer less independent thinking breeds like Labs, who are wonderful dogs too. But I still believe a GSD, when truly educated, will become a first rate service or therapy dog but it would have to be trained the way a GSD understands and not some generic anthropomorphized method (I'm not suggesting these programs use such methods I'm speaking more of the popular methods being marketed at present, which just might be a knee jerk reaction to the very harsh methods used by some in the past - but that's a whole topic unto itself:)

I honestly believe most GSD are smarter than most people, and this might just be the root of the problem:)) but GSD are not humans nor have I ever met one that seemed to want to be anything other then what it is - a German Shepherd Dog and proud of it:)  Understanding the breed and developing a method that is most appropriate for the breed and particular temperament of the dog is the only way to go. 

JMO of course:)

Susan

 I can absolutely see the potential problem with the dog becoming overprotective particularly in the situation with a person who is paranoid. I believe the dog could work through this if someone was around to help the dog learn to respond in a different way.  I guess Labs are not as reactive to the thoughts and feeling of the person they are close to but then this is what makes GSD so special:)

my best,

Susan

Susan,

The labs/goldens are reactive to the thoughts and moods, they just tend to not be so dominante.  Or so protective.  It is very seldom that you see a lab or a golden "seriously protecting" it's home.  Mostly they bark, but they often do it from behind the couch

I don't thin that is so much the training of the dogs, as it is the training of the handlers.  All too often, I have these "foofoo" owners who treat their dogs like kids in fur coats....

People in public get downright pissy when I tell them to keep their hands off the dogs I am training(Nicely, of course, but firmly)

As with most things, there are exceptions to every rule.  There are a few people who I would "allow" to have a GSD if they were to come to me for training....but most not.

Anyway, speaking of dogs....I got a lovely little lab, I have to get out today, and my Rottie girl is now bleeding, so she is at home and off duty for a few weeks!  Plus, I just got back from diving, and I am hungry....so must do lunch!!!!!!!!!!!

 The labs/goldens are reactive to the thoughts and moods

I wasn't saying they don't react at all hence the use of  the phrase "not as reactive".  All animals including humans respond to non-verbal communications including thoughts and feelings, which influence chemical production within the body.  Because GSDs, as well as some other breeds (particularly the guardian breeds), are bred to at times work out of sight of their human handler they have developed the trait of make decisions on their own and in their handlers stead if the need ever arises.  Therefore these breeds are particularly sensitive to the cues from these unspoken communications and these breeds will tend to attempt to respond to a need without direct instruction.  

Labs and other retrievers on the other hand are breed to wait until they are signaled to act so tend not to take action based on the involuntary cues given off by their handler; instead they will tend to wait for a command.  I'm certainly not suggesting these breeds are unaware of anything that is going on, or they have no response to these types of cues, or that their response is somehow inferior.  I'm just suggesting that they handle them differently i.e. the GSD will act independently, unless they are given direction to act otherwise, if they feel the situation warrants it, while Labs/Retrieves will tend to wait and watch or act as previously trained and not improvise.  This might be just what  makes them a current choice for most of the service & therapy training programs you mentioned.  I think we're basically in agreement here just coming at it from a different angle. Enjoy your dogs and your lunch:)

once again JMO,

Susan

Dogs and Lunch was great.

Benny, the lab who is in training, was awesome today.  Retrieved his leash, harness, new collar, my shoes, my keys and my purse(quiet heavy).

He did a great down/stay under the table, and folks never knew he was there!

So, why was the German Shepherd once the #1 breed used as Seeing Eye dogs?

What has changed?

Is it handling methods, or the breed?

I remember reading in a book about seeing eye dogs, that if a German Shepherd guide dog came to the edge of an excavation in the sidewalk, it would block its handler from going forward, even though the handler was telling it to go forward. A poodle, on the other hand, would have jumped down into the excavation, and pulled its handler down with it.

What has changed? Why are they now using standard poodles as guide dogs?

Dog Trainer-

Thanks for the info on tasks to train.  I mostly do play therapy with kids using art and story telling.  For many kids it's far less threatening to tell their story to a dog than to an adult.  Some of the kids that I work with have been so traumatized and rejected that interacting with a dog is a step towards rebuilding other relationships.  Some kids get really angry and violent in the therapy room and to prevent Georgia feeling like she has to protect me I make sure she is not in the office on the days that I work with those types of clients.  I have to put everyone's safety first and AAT (animal assisted therapy) isn't appropriate for every child that I see. 

I do have a crate in my room that she can go to when she needs a break and we are able to go outside to a field next to our building to play tug during breaks.  Georgia has a great temperament for this work - indoors she is calm and would lay on her bed all day if I let her.  Outside she will retrieve forever and I've discovered that she is really good at tracking since we started training with the Schutzund club.  I think that being able to do that training has given us a way to build our bond.  It's just taken some work to undo some bad habits she developed.

I was initially confused by this thread because to me therapy dog means something totally different than service dog!  My son is legally blind and has some mobility problems and when he is older he may get a service dog, but it will come down to whether or not he is able to handle the dog.  He's definitely not firm enough to handle a GSD on his own.

Opal