What is Going On!!! - Page 2

Brittany, you are very naive and inexperienced and it shows. These are dogs we are talking about, not people. I personally know several breeders who have reported having to hold maiden bitches. One breeder still has to hold a very experienced bitch to get her to breed. This bitch is a great mom and produces very nice puppies, she just doesn't like male dogs.  The mechanics of dog breeding involve a tie, wherein the male and female remain linked for a time (5 to 30 minutes). The male can be seriously injured if the bitch tries to get away during this time. If it were my stud dog, I would want the bitch held.  A broken penile bone is very painful, may not heal right and can put a great stud off breeding forever. Yes, dogs have bones there and they can be broken. Now you know.

I know of several small breed little males who have had to have part of their penis amputated because the bitch fought and rolled and broke the penile bone.  now imagine if something like this happen to VA1 Yasko or VA1 Larus or any other top breeding male.  the owners would be pissed.  just because you did not hold a bitch, you ruined that males entire stud career (these are $20,000us to $300,000 + dogs, and can easily bring in the same $300,000+ in their breeding life times just on their stud fee's and puppy sales.).  It can happen, and does happen frequently.  I for one will continue to hold a female, even if she stands willingly for a male.  it is just safer for all parties involved.  Ed Frawley has a very useful tool called a bitch hitch.  you basically tie this female up in the holding rack and let the male do his thing. 

Jennifer

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A broken penile bone is very painful, may not heal right and can put a great stud off breeding forever. Yes, dogs have bones there and they can be broken. Now you know.

It just sounds so OUCH.  Gives me the shudders and I'm not even a male.

Sam1427, Yanno you maybe right about me being inexperience (I never had a litter) in the breeding world but I do have common sense. If the bitch is known to be a wiggle butt and the stud owners are worried that their dogs penis breaking during the breeding process then why the hell cant they use AI on the bitch? Why use such force and traumatize first time bitches into force breeding? Is it that important for the male to have penetration? Or is this a case of E.G.O? How difficult is it to take both the bitch and the stud dog to a Vet who specializes in canine reproduction to use A.I?
It might cost extra but at least it's humane.

I have several breeding books thats written by well known authors, like Fred Lanting, which by the way I have all of his books. I don't need for you to explain to me the schematics of the birds and the bees in canine reproduction system. Thanks for the offer but I've already know about the tie and how dogs mate.

If I had a great breeding male and someone came to me with their bitch for a breeding and seeing  by the way the bitch reacted (dog aggression) and my instincts tells me that my stud dog will get injured by the bitch... I will offer the bitch owner A.I as an option and if denied I will have the bitch owner take the dog home without breeding as I do not believe in force breeding.

Jen,
Why can't people use AI for aggressive bitches? Why does it have to be a natrual breeding? Again it's a case of EGO and knowing that their dogs got “Laid”. Or the question is... why are these bitches being bred in the first place? Yes these bitches may have titles, Kkl1 and V in the body but maybe just maybe people should realse that these bitches may not be good breeding dogs if the bitches are wanting to tear the stud dogs penis off. It doesn't make a whole lot of sense to me to breed these dogs.

As far as I see it it's like breeding to an unstable dog.

Brittany, I suggest you go back and re-read The Total German Shepherd section on breeding. You'll find out why a tie is important and why some people may choose not to use AI.  Please remain a pet owner and not a breeder.

Sam, it's no use.  Trust me. 

MI GSD,  I thought that might be the case, now I know. I'm done with this thread.

Sam1427,
Do you think I was born yesterday? Of course I know how important the tie is! Where do you see on my post stating that a tie isn't important? I never question about the importance of a tie. You can have a successful breeding with AI. Hell you can even have a successful breeding with frozen semen! Who do you think you are telling me that I shouldn't be a breeder? Is it because I respect the bitches comfort that are in the process of being bred? Or how I strongly disagree with the breeding practices of forcing a bitch to be bred even know she doesn't want to be bred? What makes me unqualified to be a breeder? You seem to know a lot about breeding, more than I.

You might want to read

http://www.oregonlabrador.com/docs/AI_CANINE_ARTIFICIAL_INSEMINATION_AWL.pdf

http://horta.0catch.com/congressospcv/18.pdf

Brittany,

I commend you for your concern for the bitch's comfort and emotions.  Thank you.  However, it is more upsetting for your sensibilities than it is to the bitch herself. 

After the male ties, he continues to ejaculate fluid for several minutes which helps push the semen along (which was ejaculated first) to it's destined matchup.  Without this aid, there are often fewer pups in an AI, the semen swims the entire distance without natures' planned assistance. 

You are also looking at greater expense...the stud breeding the bitch costs nothing, the vet will charge you an office visit, an exam, for progesterone testing and the AI.  Here, my easy going vet is going to charge me over $140 for one office visit, one AI and one progesterone.  For my vet, the first progesterone test is $65, subsequent ones are $45.  You are now looking forward to over $200-$300 in expenses to spare the bitch a moment of discomfort, which she usually overcomes to stand happily the second time. 

Sometimes, you can miss the breeding doing an AI...vets aren't available every day for progesterone testing and the tests have to come back from the lab...here, that is a two day wait.  I can miss a breeding, waiting to see if the progesterone levels are right...I've actually done that.  The stud is available even on Sunday to "test" the bitch and see if she is ready to stand :-)   I haven't yet had a stud dog give me a dirty look when asked to work on his "day off".

Sometimes, I've had a maiden bitch AI-ed before the progesterone tests have come back because I was sure I had missed the first part of her season, only to discover that her progesterone levels were not high enough, and basically she was "raped" by the vet and I, so to speak, by doing the AI.  The stud dog would not have raped her, he would have sniffed her and said "Nope, not ready."  Now I just listen to my stud dog, he's the expert.

I haven't done frozen semen yet, but I've heard it can be risky.  You need to implant it surgically, which necesitates frequent progesterone testing to be done.  You are looking at a lot of expense.  Well worth it when you are doing a carefully planned breeding meant to enrich your breeding program from a stud dog who resides far away.

Veronica