Problem with outing - Page 2

Nate very well stated. These are great techn. and keeps the dog with the helper.  It makes it very clear to the dog what it is that he needs to do.  Very logical.  I am not a trainer but am an intermediate handler that sometimes still makes handler errors ( my old brain is sometimes not as fast as it used to be).  With a third person, I can concentrate on what I need to do in order to make my dog successful during training sessions.

Some dogs also can be sensitive to handler corrections.   using a 3rd person will often  create less conflict with the handler.

If a dog is sensitive to handler correction, either the dog hasn't been taught to handle pressure from its handler without decreasing drive, or it has a poor relationship with it's handler.

I personally would never want anyone to correct my dog but me. I teach all my dogs as pups to out on a toy with low pressure, high motivation to out so we can begin the game again in earnest.

Just my couple of cents, take them as you will.

With my dog he figured out where the correction was coming from (me)  and by varing  souce of the correction we were able to decrease him looking for me and concentrating on the helper.  This presented as a problem more when we were doing a blind search.  Unfortumatly this was an older dog I started with.so I did'nt have the opportunity to use that (KCzaja's) approach with dog as a pup.  

I have a pretty good relationship with the dog, but he also can be collar wise to some degree so it helps to keep things unpredictable.  I also have a mild degree of visual impairment due to a transplant and at times it is better to give a properly timed correction than for me give one late due to my limitations. (Sunsets really wipe out my depth perception)

As Nate said before this really depends on the dog  and keeping some degree of flexibility

Jeff 

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kE-stTjmELA

here is a video clip of a dog that would benefit from the kind of correction that nate is describing.  i like this dog very much, but it is obvious throughout his performance that he has had "issues" with his training.  the dog knows what is expected of him.  he releases after the escape.  he releases after being driven, but he flat out refuses to release on the attack.

here is another video clip of the same dog, but this time he does release.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PaOdIuyIJ_M

going back to vikram's initial post, he states that the dog's grip is full, but unsure.  i do not feel that this sort of correction would be appropriate for vik's dog........at this stage.  perhaps later, but not at this time, i see it creating conflict in the dog.  as hodie suggested, it is difficult to know where the real problem lies without seeing the dog, so i am just guessing here.  it sounds to me like vikram has some basic groundwork to worry about before he tackles the "outting" problem.

pjp

Nate,

Thank you for covering my query as regards to the “OUT”..

Your drawing with the helper’s correction is super. Thanks for the effort. Still need to comprehend your description for handler's correction. A visual is always better for this instance.

“If I'm working on building a bark and hold with a young dog, then when he gives me what I want, I don't give him a grip and then create problems by telling him out.”

Can you please elaborate how might you reward for the intense bark & hold……(with a grip and slip the sleeve)? How would you retrieve the sleeve (without the OUT command) for a repeated exercise? This part is most interesting for me.

I have not started much bitework with my young german shepherd female who just turned 15 months today. As I am new to the sport, I wanted to gain better understanding on the few technicalities surrounding bitework first such like developing a full calm grip, intensity for bark & hold and a clean OUT.

Honestly, I was not ready for this part of the training and wanted to instil a bit more trust with my dog as well. I am the inconfident one not my feisty bitch who would just love to bite!!! The time is now and I should start having a bit more confidence with the training at the club. There is so much to teamwork particularly in this area, and it seems that each club have their own methods.

Keep it real

ziegenfarm/ nate

Just seen your link to some moving pictures. I will check them out to see if it helps. Thanks.

Watched both the videos, super dog. Where the dog did not release on command after the attack shown in the first video, which method of correction would you reckon was used and why would you opt for that method?

How much groundwork would you say for a young dog to develop on a full grip before introducing the OUT?

Are there any video clips for working-in progress using these various methods? 

Thanks in advance.

i don't think there is a rule of thumb that applies here.  with some dogs, as with hodie's, the out can be trained completely separate from the sleeve work.  with others, there is a need for harsher correction and thus a need for bigger reward.  one thing that is important either way is that the dog understands that by giving up the tug, ball, rag, sleeve that the game can begin again.

one of the vital points of flink's teaching is stressing the importance of building a good relationship with the dog.  sometimes, if the right feeling is not there between dog and handler, that in itself can cause problems.  another thing he teaches is that you do not make the dog "out" each and every time.  he says that the dog should not know when the "out" is coming and therefor cannot anticipate it.  he practices what he preaches as well.  one time he outs, then maybe 30 times he doesn't, then another out, then maybe 10 or 15 with no out.  the dog must not know when he will have to out, but when he is told to out.......he must.  flinks also uses the technique of "taking the dog in your arms" just as jeff g. described above.  i cannot say enough positive things about this technique.  this technique builds the relationship with the dog, produces a calm grip and a clear head.  this technique can be used in initial training or in correcting problems; old dogs with bad habits or young pups just learning.  it builds confidence in the dog and thus correctness.  when the dog is correct, he wins and that builds even more confidence.  flinks also will tell you that it is never ideal for the helper to be making corrections on your dog.  he calls it, "shit training."  those of you who know flinks, know that this is so.  however, he will also tell you that sometimes this is necessary.  i have no doubt that nate has both the experience and the expertise to apply the above technique with good results.  however, one should not have to rely on helper corrections with any kind of regularity.  infact, any sort of correction that is used regularly, obviously is not achieving the desired result.

just a couple of words about the "non-outting" so that it is clear what i mean.  if the dog is gripping well, carries the item, comes into your arms confidently and holds the item firmly and calmly in his mouth without chewing, it is not necessary to make the dog "out" in order for the game to begin again.  simply have the helper slip back into the sleeve again or if you are working by yourself, play tug with the dog.  allow him to carry and return to your arms as many times as necessary to build confidence and eliminate the conflict in outting.  i will relate this to asking a child to pick up his crayons.  if the child is watching tv in the livingroom with his crayons on the floor and you are yelling at him from the kitchen to pick up his crayons, how effective is your yelling going to be?  you need to be right there and you need to be prepared to reinforce the command; likewise with the dog.  if you are across the field from your dog, yelling, "aus! aus!"  how effective will you be?  if your dog chooses to blow you off (here i see flinks demonstrating a dog's action with middle finger in the air) you need to be prepared to reinforce your command.  in short, don't condition the dog to anticipate the out each time, but when you do ask the dog to out, make darn sure he does it.  "drive, compulsion, drive."  ---bernhard flinks.

good luck.  :)

pjp

ziegenfarm

Thank you for sharing your understanding and knowledge on the subject.  It is invigorating and helpful to detail.  I will try to get hold of B.Flinks dvd as suggested earlier.

Nate

I watched your video of Argos, son of Stuka where he was on a backtie.  Were you working on all three aspects i.e. development for the bark, calm grip and out for the exercise?

I do not know how much your 11 mths dog has been trained prior to this exercise, I like to know because I was in a similar situation and thought it was too much learning packed into one exercise for a beginning lesson.  Am I wrong believing so?