OT - Breeding for "Pet Quality" - Page 2

Sunsilver, the dogs as Tina described already existed. There was no need to reinvent the breed. In east germany there were many GSDs bred which were oversized, big boned with bold heads. Very protective of property and family, but at the same time very gentle even to strangers unless there was an obvious threat.

Those dogs usual did not make it in the registry because of the size, but truly, back then only few people cared about papers. Some of them were presented at registration shows normally at age 2, and were registered without a registered mother/father in the books. Some of those GSD had thicker stock coat or some more feathering on the belly, legs and tail, but were by no means long coated GSDs as you see today.

There were several of those dogs within my family. Mostly black and mustard yellow, or completely black. Some fo the pups went to the Czechs as we lived close to the border for Goods you couldnt get in east germany in return. Others usual went to small Farms (Bauernhoefe) as they were suited well for that.

I will attach a pic of my last pup of "our" line. He looked like his father who was 73 cm at the shoulder and weighted arround 55 kg. In the pic he is 5 months old. This is an old photograph from the 90s, the yellow coloring got lost during scanning. Sadly he got killed as I left him with a friend while I had to go to a job seminar. Special thanks to US costums/USPS which lost part of my packaging during my move to the US, including all of my pictures.

Elkoor,

I was so fortunate to own a grandson of David v Nebelholz who was very much as you described. My Shadow was very much like David. Both dogs were quite a bit over-sized. When Shadow got his BH the judge asked me where I got such a dog, that he had the best temperament and solid nerves that he had not seen in 30 years. When he got his WH the judge said Shadow was everything a GSD was supposed to be. Beyond compare as a visual crime deterrent.

Shadow is the head shot on the left and on the right is a picture of a young David Nebelholz (came to the USA BEFORE the wall came down-a real DDR dog)

Today's sports fans would not choose either one of these dogs for sport. As youngsters, they just seem too calm.

When I brought Shadow home I just sat him in the front seat and he looked around but stayed where I put him. No random barking and no over-the-top prey drive. He was extremely easy to live with and very biddable. He was almost two years old before I ever saw him put his hackles up. He had a monster bite and made full eye contact with the helper. If the helper threw the sleeve he did not chase it. He was 100% for the man. He went with me on business trips to very high end hotels and was welcome in shops and restaurants in Carmel. He played well with client's dogs. There was one real-life incident and he did not hesitate.

Eye to eye with his trainer. No chewing-no need to re-bite. When he cruised into the blind, like a 57 Chevy, no bumping or dirty biting and his deep basso bark stayed deep. Good nerves-no high pitched barking.

Many people are breeding for high prey drive and the general public does not want to live with that. They want something much calmer and not afraid and with protective instincts intact. Very, very hard to find in "working dogs".

Now I am learning to live with high prey drive.

Michele and Pharaoh

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Elkoorr,

Wow, That is one heavy-boned pup. Especially at 5 months when they're typically all legs. Nice!

>Whether you are breeding for  homes or police departments, working homes or show homes, ragging on one another here only makes you all seem silly.

I would not say it's ragging to state that the majority of dogs bred are most likely going to wind up being pet quality regardless of whether you're breeding for: police, show, SAR, seeing-eye programs, etc. What seems silly to me to breed dogs without an over-arching objective other than "pet" because pet seems to be the default quality of most dogs. If you look at the Guiding Eyes for the Blind, they have lots of dogs that just don't make the cut, even with their well-planned breeding program. They offer these dogs for adoption as... pets!

With pet quality being the norm of dogs produced, regardless of the breeder's intent for the program, it hardly seems reasonable to have a breeding program that revolves around specializing in -average- dogs. Everyone thinks their dog is the best dog ever, and there's nothing wrong with that, But to use that as a basis of a breeding program?...

...I'll stand by what I said earlier: mix or purebred, the mediocracy of "family pets" -- of any species, as 4Pack mentioned -- is simply not a good enough reason to add to the animal population when there are so many wonderful pets that don't have homes.

Such high idea's.

If only everyone was the same.

SSDD.

jc, I agree with every word. Breeding for the best still produces more pets than top dogs. Breeding for anything less, is just a knife in the throat, of all the pet quality dogs in shelters around the world. I used to be against breeding. I was on the other end of the spectrum, rescuing GSD's that no one else wanted or needed anymore. I came to realize, good honest breeders are not the problem and someone is always going to breed, it may as well be the best. Why ask them to quit, giving up only so the masses can finish off the breed?

Anyone not doing it right can kiss my ass. How many people spent countless hours and dollars to clean up your messes? People need to be honest, take a good look in the mirror ( or better yet, your kennel). People seem to think it's their God given right to own a dog, pass one out to everyone.

Nice looking dogs, Pharoh!

Unfortunately, Tina didn't have such great luck with the dogs she imported, in an effort to find a dog like her grandmother's. She tried a number of German lines:  "I had Liebestraum female (for intelligence), Wikingerblut (for Schutzhund), and....added Osnabruckerland (for size) and PIastendamm (for courage and "heart')" (Shioh Shepherd Story, pg. 19)

Elkoorr, that dog DOES look a lot like Tina's Rex! She has no photos of him, but says he looked a lot like the 1957 American Grand Victor, Red  Rock's Gino: http://www.pedigreedatabase.com/gsd/pedigree/402621.html

oasdog Amen.

Sunsilver,

I was wondering if anyone was going to notice that David Nebelholz (a Don Rolandsteich son-also GROB!) is in the pedigree of the original Shilohs. I was googling David and kept coming up with Shiloh pedigrees.

Michele and Pharaoh