Update: 2008 USA Sieger Show Schutzhund USA Response - Page 2

Agree with John! Once again, the rules are clear and need no further clarification. They simply need to be enforced and this is already being done elsewhere. If need be, bring in a different judge who has a different experience and not years of allowing what has gone on in the past. This is not hard, it is just a lack of will on the parts of those in charge to see it done. Maybe that will change

The article in the magazine is written as if the "internet" community unduly pressured to even bring the subject up. Further, the way I read it intimated that it is the BWs who saw a problem. Some of them did, some did not. There WAS a problem and there still IS a problem. Except for all the pressure put on by the petition and those of us who have posted, I am skeptical frankly that it WILL be different in the future. Now, perhaps those who are BWs who KNOW and have KNOWN there is a problem can finally make a difference. But all their work will go for naught if the highest levels of the organization are no so committed.

use whatever tools you have.  if it takes online petitions and messageboards to make them see the upset people out there, then so be it.    at least they are able to see the numbers of people unhappy with the way things are.

john

I really hope they live up to this. Bring on the real dogs.

I'm always the last to get my issues of Schutzhund USA.   I'm looking forward to reading the article. 

Mystere, I always enjoy reading your posts. You cut to the chase and tell it like it is. Very refreshing..........

If the rules are to be enforced, and, for example, as I have suggested over and over and over, video examples of acceptable vs unacceptable work are on the web for all to look at so they would know what to expect, there is no reason not to enforce the rules as they are and do it NOW.

If some show people don't enter, so what? If more working dogs enter, great, and they too will have to tow the line and know that they will have to meet certain standards in the conformation to achieve SG and V ratings. Of course, they will also have to perform too in the protection routine and I suspect we will see a few not do so well from working lines, just as we do in trials around the country.

So, those who never have cared about structure, and proper presentation who breed dogs who look like hyenas, even though they might be able to work, will not fare so well in rating for structure. But, if one makes the change, is consistent, then here is an example of how we could lead where other organizations have faltered. So what if there is a show with one or two VAs, few Vs and mostly SGs and G ratings in conformation? If they can do it all, then these should be the dogs that begin to set the bar. Eventually, the bar will be raised. And those of us who bring solid V structure dogs who are exemplary in the work will not be told here that such a dog is crap as one person suggested when the topic was discussed. One makes changes in my opinion and does it, rather than tip toe around for years and years and years, all the while the target changing.

I would disagree with Mystere in one small way and that is the implication that it is only the show line people who care about the money. I see plenty of breeders of working lines here and elsewhere who are also selling dogs for high amounts, including the one year old green dog that someone recently had up for sale here for $2,000. I have several excellent young females (show line) who could do the work, and whose structure and temperaments are sound, and I would not be selling them green for that kind of money. The bottom line is that there are fewer working line people registering their litters with USA, and few advertise here, but if the numbers were actually tabulated, there may well be just as many such working line litters being produced and many sold for lots of money. None the less, I don't buy the money argument about the fear of not enforcing the rules for the performance part of the SS. Just do it. If the event looses money, then do it alternate years to allow the people time to adjust. Set the standard high - people will meet it. Set it low - people will continue with producing mediocrity and nothing will change. When I taught, I got what I expected from people and that was meeting a high standard of work and quality.

This is not going to change overnight.  Simple fact. dogs that were VA and V last year will be dismissed the next year because of performance issues in the C.

Show line folks have to be motivated to train in the C.  Until a non pronounced rating nullifies a dog from being VA, its all for naught.

The C must become as important as gaiting.

Working line Sch clubs must become more receptive to show line folks looking to work their dogs and improve.  There is no difference between a show line with poor grips and a working line with poor grips.

If the WDA does not follow suit, show lines will just switch teams.

Kyle

<<<<Working line Sch clubs must become more receptive to show line folks looking to work their dogs and improve.  There is no difference between a show line with poor grips and a working line with poor grips.

If the WDA does not follow suit, show lines will just switch teams.>>>>>

And that is precisely what will happen--there are reasons that the  WDA Sieger Show is larger...and not only geography.  WDA will never follow suit on holding the line, as it has a disinct disincentive  to do so.  Look at the WDA trial results on the WDA website and you will see what I am talking about. 

From my experience, it is NOT only the receptiveness of the working sch clubs that is an issue ( and I am NOT denying that it is often an issue)--it is  also the attitude of the show folks who show up ONLY for bitework and ONLY prior to breed surveys and Sieger Shows, with multiple (6-8) of dogs to be worked.  This has happened in more than one club I was in.   That does NOTHING to engender receptiveness.  One show breeder I can think of (known here for dyeing dogs) is a prime example of this.   Schutzhund is a THREE phase sport and breed-worthiness test. 

Mystere,

You make a good point about people simply showing up only before an event to work multiple dogs. I guess I would ask how do they think they are entitled to do this? Of course, if we hold an event, we give access to our helper before hand *(and we have to pay for a helper since the club is all older women) but we would not allow someone to come and do what you say has been done in your area. No, it does nothing to engender receptiveness.

Either show line enthusiasts are committed to the system, including all phases of training, or they are not. This is one reason why one should not be buying a pup advertised as SchH ability when, in fact, the breeder has never or rarely been involved and knows little about the sport, the dogs, temperament, biddability, etc.

We have several in our region who are not committed to anything but money, but even so, as far as I know, they have not pulled what you mention. SchH IS a three phase sport and a breed-worthiness test. Like in all avenues of life however, there are always going to be people who will try to short-circuit the system. There is a man in my state who once told me he laughs while he drinks his coffee and watches everyone out working so hard to train their dogs in all kinds of weather. He is the worst example I can think of, preferring to make bucks selling puppies and dogs, not knowing anything about what he sells. He sells for high prices, but sad thing is, so many are taken in and don't know better. Like him, they too are lazy.

In any case, setting a standard would also require people to get a clue and find a place to regularly train. The most serious next issue is a lack of qualified helpers, and the fact that so many of the handlers are not going to be effective trainers either. This is another issue that needs serious thought to rectify within the organization.

As for everyone simply going over to WDA, I know I would not, simply for the reasons you state, and I am not sure how many would. But, if they did, so what? Again, if we are to close this gap and breed and show and trial and promote appropriate examples of the breed, rather than just pretty dogs who are not really GSDs in temperament or biddability, we must take the high road in my mind. Don't get me wrong....I have a standard too for what I like in conformation, but without working ability, the dog is not a GSD regardless of how beautiful.