A question on color - Page 2

so in order to find out the exact phenotype, you need to trace it all the way back to the beginning of the pedigree?

I think I need a straight out example. Another random dog.

http://www.pedigreedatabase.com/gsd/pedigree/538767.html

How would I go about finding the phenotype for this dog?

Look at the picture (ha ha). The phenotype is what you see, the genotype is the phenotype plus the recessive. Black dogs in the pedigree make it very easy to decode genotypes of both their parents and their offspring, because "what you see is what you got" (a+a). If a particular dog's genotype is in question, examine the progeny pictures, and remember the order of dominance rules. And a black & tan dog cannot come from a black parent and bicolor parent, unless molly can prove otherwise (no disrespect intended).

yes, sorry I was meaning genotype. Ok so if a dog is black then either one, or both of it's parents must be carrying a recessive gene of a?

And to find the recessive gene(assuming the dog is not black) you look at the progeny, and the colour popping up most, is likely what the recessive gene is?

yes, sorry I was meaning genotype. Ok so if a dog is black then either one, or both of it's parents must be carrying a recessive gene of a?

And to find the recessive gene(assuming the dog is not black) you look at the progeny, and the colour popping up most, is likely what the recessive gene is?

http://www.pedigreedatabase.com/gsd/pedigree/338197.html

For example this dog's genotype would be as+?

In order to get a black dog both of the parents must either be black or carry the black recessive.

Eick has produced black puppies so you know his genotype is as+a.

ok so this time it's definatly the last qestion. If the dog has not produced any progeny then you cannot tell the whole genotype? Thank you very much darylehret for all of your help, and also CrashKerry

Depends. My dog's parents are both black and tans, and the father also carries black. Until I breed my dog, I can't know for sure whether she's as+as or as+a. On the other hand, I know of a breeding from a sable bitch that carries black (aw+a) to a black and tan male (as+as). If the puppy is sable, you know it has to be aw+as. If the puppy is black and tan, you know it is as+a.

"Ok so if a dog is black then either one, or both of it's parents must be carrying a recessive gene of a?"

Both must carry "a", and that same black dog will always contribute an "a" allele.

"And to find the recessive gene(assuming the dog is not black) you look at the progeny, and the colour popping up most, is likely what the recessive gene is?"

Whatever pops up might help indicate, but you want to be sure by using the "rules", in logical fashion by process of elimination in piecing the puzzle together.

"If the dog has not produced any progeny then you cannot tell the whole genotype?"

Not necessariy.  For example, I bred a sable sire who's sire was black (that makes him aw+a).  I knew his genotype before I bred with him.  I then bred him to a black female, and therefore could be certain that any sable puppies of the litter carried the black recessive (like their father, aw+a), and the black puppies were of course homogenous for black (a+a).

Any black coat patterns are a good place to begin when deciphering the genotypes of an entire pedigree, because you can be certain it received a black gene from each parent, and in turn contributed one to it's progeny.  Also, when you see anything other than a sable come from a sable parent, it helps indicate which recessive that parent may have.  If that sable parent were bred with a black dog, you could easily determine if it's recessive were black&tan or bicolor.

Hi Daryl,

Here's a question that cropped up in another thread. What is meant by the phrase "black factored".

Michele and Pharaoh

Just to add to the wonderful intrigue in the conversation on colors, we have bred 4 100% West German show line traditional blk/red females with a black stud (he's a majority west German show lines, but gets his black color from some WGR working lines) and got BLACK puppies out of EVERY ONE of those show line females. In one case, 5 out of 10 pups were black. In another 2 out of 3. In another, the only pup produced was black. In the other, 3 out of 7 were black. 
The females I've mentioned have nothing at least 9+ generations back (most likely even further back) of any hint of sable or black-they're all traditional blk/reds like seen in most WGR showline pedigrees. Nice lines, too, at that.
So the black must have been carried down through all those generations from waaaaay back in order to still pop out when the right condition was met. Logic dictates those girls most likely wouldn't carry the black gene because they come from such a lineage of all blk/reds, but they ALL did.