titles not important? - Page 2

"The real proof is in the actual breeding. The resulting progeny are the only clear accurate measure of the parents abilities to produce excellent quality pups, not some artificial obstacle course that the parents have been repeatedly trained to excel at"

Well, that little piece of sophistry is almost convincing!

The self proclaimed expert breeder's website that oldmonkey65 refers to in the first post in this thread is not impressed with all the "hoopla" of titles and conformation shows and oh so tiresome breed surveys.  Those are all just "outdated tools".

Based on this kind of reasoning, who needs the "hoopla" of OFA hips and elbows? After all, there is still no absolute guarantee........We all know stupid people who graduated from college... or law school ..... or medical school ..... so why not just go to an extremely confident and convincing, but self taught, brain surgeon? After all, there is no guarantee!

And, for our expert breeder, all that is necessary is the breeder's expert opinion based on what? A crystal ball? intuition? or is it really about need and greed?

So, here's how it goes....something like this maybe..... I've been a breeder for 30 (or 40 or 50) years and I have a very dominant personality. I don't need no stinkin "hoopla". I have opinions and feelings to share with you and I am so domineering, I can convince you of what I need you to believe so that you will give me your money. So, when I tell you that these puppies born in my garden shed are the best, believe me and write a big check or cash or wire transfer. Just trust me, after all, there are no guarantees in this life, so who needs due diligence or bonafides or anything really, but my self proclaimed expert opinion.

GOOD LUCK!!!!!

True, so true. I dismissed this person as a greedy, puppymill type. However, it was that last sentence about how a trophy won't save your life that I found interesting. It got me thinking about how I often read about bad trainers and their methods and lack of care. I wonder how many a dog is bought  blindly only because of the titles. I really agree there has to be a test to prove breed-worthiness. It just seems there is always going to be a snake cheating the system.

 Oldmonkey65....we have discussed this topic of dogs "saving" one's life here before, so I don't want to get that going again, but, if the truth be known, many people assume their dog would "protect" them. It simply isn't true. 

There is no TEST to prove breed worthyness......there is a system with many pieces to the puzzle, some regulated, some historical, some experiential. And it is all done by humans which opens up a can of worms and allows for faulty interpretation of every part of the puzzle....

This guy is spot on with this statement........

1.) what really matters is what the dogs produce...not what titles they have.

He (I am assuming it is a he) is also correct when they talk about mediocre dogs succeding with good training and vice versa. I always wonder how many good GSD's out there don't get bred because they don't have a title. How sad that is.

For the most part, unless you get to the upper levels, sport ttiles are not a "test" of a dog but rather a demonstration of the their training and ability. Real tests happen in training, not trials.

I am not advocating not titling a dog. It is a great accomplishment. I for one enjoy the competition aspect of it. Just don't get sucked in to the idea, a title accuratley reflects the quality of the dog.

Yes, oldmonkey65, there are always people who cheat.

That is why I drove all up and down the west coast visiting breeders who had puppies from titled, breed surveyed dogs with hip and elbow clearances. Prior to that, I had researched on the computer for breeders of certain bloodlines that I had experience with and liked. That was my effort on heredity.

Since environment plays an extremely important part, I visited many kennels. I wanted to see what the parents looked like and how they really lived and what they were fed etc.

I spent considerable time at two of the kennels and ultimately chose the one that Pharaoh came from. I interacted with both of his parents for a good long time. That is how I made my decision, knowing, that there is still no guarantee. I did what I could and then it's up to me and to luck as to how it turns out.

So far, Pharaoh is 9 months old now and I got a lot more dog than I bargained for. He is way more high drive than my previous dogs. Happiness for the trainer and helper and more work for me. Fortunately, he is very easy to live with. He does have an off switch for kicking back and relaxing. I do bring him to client's offices and homes.

He has the high energy playfulness of his father and he is the smartest dog I have ever been around. I have done Schutzhund with my previous dogs but this one really has a fire in his belly for it. But, that is what his genetics fortold.

Within any litter there is a range of temperament. A good experienced breeder will help you to choose the right pup based on their obsevations of the litter.

There is no substitute for making sure you do business with decent folk. Then pray!

This photo was taken 5/21/08.

Michele & Pharaoh

How about this one.

It comes from a German Shepherd breeder. He doesn't do anyhing with his dogs and gets $3,500.00 each for them.

16.) What does all this "hoopla" about Conformation titles, CH. titles and Schh titles really mean ? Does it guarantee I will get a good GSD and why or why not? Please help me sort this out.

            It is our opinion that Conformation titles and Obedience titles are somewhat outdated tools that are sometimes used by breeders to try to help them select which animals might produce well when bred to another. In the case of working and obedience titles, which are basically and quite simply just complex pattern training exercises, a marginal candidate can, if trained by and exceptional trainer - exceed all expectations. Illustrating not it's excellent genetic traits, but rather it's trainer's exceptional ability. The reverse is also true, an incredible genetic specimen, which if broken down by a poor trainer would probably be weeded out of a breeding program, by these same inaccurate measuring tools. If you think about it, it's quite obvious, it's just common sense. In most cases these events are demonstrating the trainers ability more than the actual genetic ability of the dog to pass on any fantastic trait.
            At their best they are, in our opinion, simply inaccurate and coarse indicators of possible correct genetics. The real proof is in the actual breeding.The resulting progeny are the only clear accurate measure of the parents abilities to produce excellent quality pups, not some artificial obstacle course that the parents have been repeatedly trained to excel at. I have seen many times, Schutzhund 3 FH bred to Schutzhund 3 FH and the resulting litter had not even one pup that was note worthy. If a dog has titles or not, does not matter to me. It's whether or not that dog produces progeny with exceptional qualities consistently that really matters. "The proof is always in the pudding" so to speak...
            I can give you lots and lots of satisfied customers to speak with to prove my point. Not just people who are simply satisfied with their GSD's and their interaction with us, but quite simply ELATED! See for yourself at our "Letters of Reference Page".

OR THIS...

22.) "Would you say that your beautiful German Shepherds are bred more for the American show ring or for sports such as Schutzhund?"

             Neither! Quite frankly, we find that in both of the directions you have mentioned that breeders have taken the German Shepherd to the extreme and missed out on the true essence of what this noble creature is mainly used for. "Man's best friend and companion" are the words that first come to mind as the number one reason to own a well bred German Shepherd. That of course means that attributes like high bonding, companionship and a family's sound minded natural protector should obviously be the impetus of a good breeder. Not the extremely high driven Sport Dogs who will drive the average family nuts with hyperactivity, nor the far too extremely angulated narrow nosed, skinny legged Show Dog who will not bark at strangers or strangeness no matter how absurd it appears...most of those will run and hide as temperament has never been a concern in breeding Show dogs, just a look.
             People who want and buy our German Shepherds are usually looking for a healthy, sound, intelligent companion that they can make into an integral family member that "earns it's keep" so to speak. Those are the people we breed for... not the extremely angulated Show Dog, or the extremely hyper active, excessively driven Schutzhund or Sport Dog either. The people who come to us do not want those attributes. They just are not interested in how many times the grandmother of their pup was Schh 3 or how many "pounds per square inch" of biting strength their puppy will have or how many lashes with a stick their puppy's father could take before he folded under, during such abuse in a Schutzhund trial. They are just normal people who simply want a really good companion that they can always count on. We breed for good sound, working companion dogs that are easy to live with.
            There is a small minority of people and breeders who are obsessed with the competition of Sport or Show type of German Shepherd and think that all German Shepherds should be bred to their narrow minded views and rigid standards only!!! ACHTUNG! To those people we say "Wake up and smell the Wiener schnitzel" "You can have the best of both Worlds!" Typically, our clients quite simple want healthy, intelligent, high bonding, large boned, beautiful German Shepherds that they can fully trust and truly enjoy!" We provide such wonderful German Shepherds to those people and they are elated! See for yourself at our "Letters of Reference Page".

FINALLY THIS

25.)"Do you think we should protection train our dog in Schutzhund or through a professional trainer - or do we need to at all? What are your recommendations?"

            I think that anyone who trains a dog to bite human beings (outside of law enforcement officers) is just asking for trouble. Once you train a dog that it's "OK" to take a full mouth bite on someone, you have crossed the line of pets and bonded companions and entered a world of almost constant and vigilant training requirement. The reason is that now this dog "MUST" without hesitation do everything you ask as soon as you ask it. That means working him in obedience/ protection work at least once a week for several "formal hours" involving other serious minded persons and you can never stop keeping him proficient in his discipline. He must constantly be reminded that this "new learned behavior" is only to be exercised on your command and "never" otherwise. If you do not do this, then there is the real possibility that because he has not been kept proficient, that he might miscue and mistake an argument or simple "clowning around" or even a spirited "pushing wrestling match" as a reason to inflict a bite.
            I can recall seeing a less than proficient Schutzhund 3, male (Schutzhund means protection trained) several years ago, miscue on a 4 year old boy who happened to slip on the ice and fall in the direction of this "always looking for the bad guy to jump out" mental case of a poorly trained German dog. Luckily the toddler's mother had double clothing on him to keep him warm or he would have a mangled arm today instead of just teeth marks.
             My feeling is this: if you live in an area where you feel you need to have a dog protection trained, then you should first deeply consider moving!
            I am not a legal expert, but common sense tells me that, if you own a dog that is certified as a protection dog or titled in "Schutzhund" (protection trained) and your dog bites a child or someone on a miscue, you have a serious legal problem on your hands. I can just see your response when the Prosecuting Attorney asks you if "you actually trained this dog to bite human beings on purpose?" In Germany, this kind of Sport bite training is accepted and encouraged, but most Americans do not have that same "enjoyable sense" of dogs that are trained to bite people. Like Dorothy said in the Wizard of OZ: "We are just not in Germany anymore, TOTO..."
            A German Shepherd who has been bred for high bonding instincts does not need to be taught to bite people and should be discouraged from doing so, even in play. They will react naturally and appropriately, just like you would, when someone in your family is seriously threaten. They will try to stop the invader of their family by barking (yelling) and placing themselves in between their family member and the threat. In most cases that is all that they will ever need to do. They will do what you would do in the same situation to protect a family member. They are highly bonded to their family just like you and I are. They should be well trained in obedience, but not to bite people... Their awesome presence in most cases will cause all but the seriously drugged out PCP addict to find someone else to hassle.

ROTFLMAO!!!!!

My first GSD was an excellent "visual crime deterrent" and very social with steady nerves. Very calm, no nervous barking.

When he was about 12 months old, we went through the Toll Booth at the Golden Gate Bridge. As you may have heard, San Franciscans are quite colorful and unique in their personal presentation.

As we slowed from freeway speed to go through the toll booth, I rolled down the window. The toll taker put his arm out and Shadow mis-interpreted the social transaction. All he saw was a figure step out of the dark reaching for me and the outline did not compute for him. The guy had a monstrously large rasta-dredlocks thing going on-like a medusa or snake head. I am short and sit close to the steering wheel and my vehicle was a two door. There was plenty of space for him to launch out the window behind my head rest. I reacted quickly with my left arm and elbow stopping his forward momentum. Needless to say, the toll taker was horrified and I was shaking and apologizing profusely. Nobody taught him to be protective, he was born that way. My husband (a policeman) suggested I take him to a police dog trainer. Shadow needed to know that we were a team and to respect my decisions even when there was a threat. That was how we eventually ended up in Schutzhund. Some years later, he stopped a carjacker.

A protective dog needs to be trained so that they are safe. You train them to "out" or "stay". I found Schutzhund to be very helpful. But, I was so lucky as to have stumbled into Ivan Balabanov and Kelly Martin and all the wonderful people who were in Contra Costa Schutzhund at that time. Very lucky indeed.

1999 Shadow and Ivan full eye contact

Michele and Pharaoh

<<What do you think? Money/greed? Lazy?>>

Yep.  Lazy.  Putting on titles takes a lot of WORK, a lot of time, and a lot of money.  So Yes to money/greed also.

I, too, think Veronica and DCzaja said it all.

And hey, oldmonkey65, WELCOME!  This place is for lovers of ALL GSDs.  Just ignore the ones that give you heck about whatever lines you have. My first GSD was from the dog pound, but since he was a surrender I was able to find out who the owners got him from, and he looks like American pet lines to me (LOL!) but he's a beautiful, AWESOME dog, who's actually more athletic than a lot of German-line dogs (and I have one of those, too).