a question - Page 2

 From my standpoint working with a lot of clients and dogs in a year, the answer would be because there'd be more dead dogs in the world. You said that a dog wouldn't chase a cat if it understands that the cat is part of the pack. For one, how do you explain that to a dog without the use of any tools and/or corrections? For two, there are also dogs that have too intense a prey drive to be able to get through to them without some sort of tool or guidance other then whispering sweet nothings into their ear. and 3rd, who wants to chance it with their cats with a dog like that? Who wants to take the time when you can get the dog to behave better in less time with the addition of a tool? It may work with your dog or whatever dog, but there's too many dogs it wouldn't work with out there and either a dog or a cat ends up dead or in the pound. 

When I go into a home I only have so much time to convince the client a problem can be fixed. If I don't fix the problem, some may go on to another trainer, but some may think the problem can't be fixed and get rid of the dog or whatnot, or some may think all trainers can't fix their problems and do whatever with the dog. If I went in and told them to just love their dog and develop a deep connection with them etc, there would be no buy-in and the dog would suffer. So, we use tools or aids to give the owner what they need TO be able to develop a better bond with their dog. 

The theory you're promoting can be a dangerous one. You have no idea how many emails I get in a day stating that some dog is aggressive and has bit someone. They pour over where they could have gone wrong because they love the dog. When I go into the home they tell me how much they've always loved the dog, and done what they thought was best for the dog and often there HAS been a lot of patience already etc. Often they've spent lots of money with various methods trying to fix the problem to no avail. What would happen if I told them that with more time and patience and understanding and love and a deep connection the dog would be trained? Not only that, but then by the opposite token, if a dog isn't trained, you would be insinuating that they didn't love their dog. Not fair to those that DO love their dogs and want to do what's best for them. 

On my own dogs, I would SOOOOOO love to see you get through to Cyrano when he wants his way on something, without the use of any tool or aid or correction, just purely with love and understanding. Lets say I wanted him to be able to hang out with me outside because I love him and want to spend time with him. But some kid throws a ball in the street. No aid? that would equal a dead dog until I had time to train him on it. Pack structure etc sure, the dog loves me and I love him, but like heck the dog is going to remember that when that drive kicks into gear and he wants that ball, until he can be trained to control himself....and the fastest and safest way to teach him to control himself is with an aid. That's why I will do what it takes to protect him, and that involves the use of aids. 

 Perhaps one can use these so-called aids for humans, so that they learn faster. A bad joke, I know.

A change of behavior to cause with a strong aid is useful only so for a long time, as the aid is used. As soon as a dog - and he learns faster than the better behaviour - can differentiate, it is without the aid the same "mistake" make.

To that extent the aid is only one sprag, a quite bad.

Yep, it's truely evil for us poor schmucks who have to work for a living to have a dog or 2 or 5. My dogs alternately keep me sane & drive me nuts. I sure wish I could stay home with my dogs all the time, but I have to work to buy the dog food. And pay the vet, & put gas into the truck to go to work & take them to the vet. So, sometimes when the brain is tired & the dogs are not, I ask the opinion of the board...... The dogs help me recharge, & they teach me so much. But I also learn from you all-I don't own an e-collar, I do own a prong collar. No choke chains. I have found my dogs do just as well when training on a plain old padded training collar as anything else. But, I also had my shoulder destroyed by an over eager adolescent male GSD who just had to greet my daughter enthusiastically, and pulled me off my front steps; I had to have reconstructive surgery...so if there's a question of safety I don't oppose using a strong corrective device that ensures the handlers & dogs safety, since the word training implies that the dog still has learning to do. (& the handler, too, much of the time!LOL!) I agree with whomever posted that they will use whatever means to keep their dogs safe, absolutely! I am happy to discuss collars & training methods, etc.; or just lurk & read, & learn while you all discuss things. I don't think discussing the use of any particular item is necessarily an endorsement of it's use...but it's good to know what's out there. I solved my recent training dilemma with a squirt bottle! I also love my dogs, too much, probably! I live, breathe, work, worry, & rejoice in my dogs. And talk too much! jackie harris ( you're right Two Moons, it's hard to keep my mouth shut---& I'm trying to quit smoking, too....the GSDs are an addiction, as well, don't you think?)

Dog's, just like people, are all different and respond to different methods. When you get into the high drive, harder working dogs, "I love you honey, here boo, boo" etc. doesn't cut it.

I am all for positive, interactive training, and always try to use as little compulsion as possible but it depends on the individual dog and trainers.

I use tools of every kind in every aspect of my life.

Thats what they are for.   

I can't build a house without a hammer, nor work on a car without a wrench.   I have seen screw driver's used for chisel's and hammer's used as a cure of frustration.  Tool's are vital when used correctly.

I have used e-collar's and similar device's for dog's jumping up on car's, especially a stranger's car,  dog's who can't help chasing other animal's, cat's maybe but my problem is with deer,  poison proofing my dog's and keeping them out of restricted area's.

Tool's can be abused or they can help you do your work.     It's the user who decide's this not the tool.

Simple common sense.

Brent.

kalibeck,

yes very much so...:)

i~

 Dogs are sometimes strong animals. … and one makes somewhat wrong sometimes and has then a broken hand ( myself ) or an injured shoulder…. that can happen. Naturally one must buy and go working, in order to pay the veterinary surgeon and the food. A dog can wait also some hours, if it learned it.

Nevertheless one reaches patiently and observation and without obligation more than with all aids of this world. The dog lives for thousand years with humans…. There only some years are electrical collars….

It is correct - tools make the life somewhat more comfortable. I cannot accept however that this "tools" at dogs to be used.

"When you get into the high drive, harder working dogs..."

- this dogs are born into this world like every other dog. If it will be a "high drive, hard-working" dog.... - the owner made it with this dog.

My boy gets on with the cats well, as you can see ... but he will chase them if they run!

Another point that should be considered - not everyone has loads of land to walk their dogs on, and whist I am lucky and have many many miles of open heathland to walk on I either have to walk there or get the  car out, thefore my dogs have have collars and leads to get there.  If they are overly excited for some reason or another and even my oldie has the odd funny five minutes I have to have immediate control because the pavements are not that wide and they would easily end up under a car or lorry.  So really whats worse a tug/pull on a prong collar or a smack in the face from a lorry?

Exactly.  You can't take the prey or herding drive out of a German Shepherd and I don't want to take it out.  They just need to learn when to use it.  My cats are all indoors but if one escaped and ran across the dog's yard then I don't think it would make it out alive.