Use of E-Collars - Positive Training??? - Page 2

 Its an ELECTRONIC collar, hence the term ELECTRONIC SHOCK.  I don't care what you give along with the electronic collar, it still is not positive training and it hurts. That's why they are used, you hurt the dog when he does something "wrong" and the theory is he won't do it again.  He might not, but in the process the owner has not formed a bond with the dog based on trust and many times the collars are misused actually causing aggression problems.  I call it the lazy man's training tool.

just because something is electronic does not mean its a shock..you clearly have never seen one used properly .its common knowledge punishment training with an e-collar is the least effective and least permenant form of training... people who have never seen one used properly are often reactionary people are afraid of what they don't understand ..no one I know uses it in the fashion you describe that would not work ??? its an effective consistent tool that allows for perfect timing is not affected by distance strength of the handler or the fact the leash is not there and I work with aggressive dogs all the time .I would be interested in seeing some of your training videos or have you point out on my videos where the dogs are being ''shocked'' or showing fear and I am using a sound box in a lot of the videos or its almost impossible to tell whats happening with the collar you should also check out www.dobbsdogs.com

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OYCV-kgP_jY http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=h-3EmMN07N8 there is nothing shocking to these dogs and they are both naive to the collar  ..send me the link to your website k9trainer I'd like to check out your methodology I'm always up for new ideas

 Um, panzertoo....do not get me wrong here, I use a remote collar in various situations, and have many friends that use the newer styles of remote collar training so I'm not really knocking it, but for clarification, you're not really using the positive reinforcement quadrant of operant conditioning in the videos. It's actually negative reinforcement. Something happens that the dog wants to turn off, they do whatever they've learned will turn it off and then are rewarded (in this case probably food). I'm not saying that the collar is hurting them, it doesn't look like that, and with the newer low level stimulus styles I don't have a problem with it, but technically you can't claim it as positive reinforcement. I don't think you're trying to describe it as such, but the way it's being used here technically falls into negative reinforcement category. 

Before anybody thinks I mean that it's a negative thing, I don't. The actual operant conditioning thing at play here is, the removal of a stimulus as a way to reinforce a behavior. The food would be a positive reinforcer. It happens after the behavior there. The paging is happening before it and the dog wants to turn it off. Not desparately or in pain or anything, but they want to turn it off and then get rewarded with whatever praise or toy or food they want. I personally like it because it balances the training, the dog is offered a choice. And as long as you're using it correctly and low level stim etc and the dog is not stressed, it's fine by me. But call a spade a spade. 

There's alot of trainers calling the remote as a "tap on the shoulder". Ok whatever you want to call it. They all say it is positive training. Maybe so, but I've yet to see a trainer use it as a positive reinforcer. I've had trainers tell me they use it that way, but I've never seen them follow through that way. If that was the case you would be using it after the dog did the behavior as a reward for the behavior which wouldn't make sense. Basically you're using a low level stim or pager (which i'm not sure how you're able to do this a whole lot, it's been my experience that lots of dogs are more scared of the pager then the actual low level stim, but if I understood you right you're using the page function???) so there's not a whole lot of stress created nor a terribly stressful experience for the dog...but it's still negative reinforcement technically speaking. 

It's just my opinion but e-collar's and similar device's are easily misused.    I see nothing positive in using these device's over other training technique's.   They have their place for specific problem's but are no replacement for hard work and patience.

JMO

 technically from my perspective it really is the fool not the tool. Yes ecollars can be misused, but so can pinch collars, head collars, and even buckle collars. It's the fool not the tool. In the hands of someone that knows what they're doing and on the right dog, it's a fine tool. Offers excellent timing and separates the handler from the picture in some ways...makes it more about the dogs decision to the dog. BUT, there are the caveats of having the collar in the hands of someone that knows what they're doing with it, and I DO see a lot of fools out there that don't know what the heck they're doing so I don't push it much without really knowing a handlers skill levels first. It can be a good thing and can help many dogs.....but only in the hands of someone who knows how to use it right. That's the same with most of the training collars though. 

And technically, to do the remote collar right it still takes patience and hard work, those would not be lacking from any "program" regardless of the tool the trainer is using. So I would never look at it as a replacement for those things. It's just a tool in the toolbox. But it DOES need to be done right. I personally saw no stress at least from the portions of the videos I watched. I don't trust someone telling me they use it this way though unless I've seen it. THe original question on the guy saying he uses it positively would have had to have proven it to me plenty, and even then he wouldn't have gotten one of MY puppies just because of his other issues (like seeming clueless). 

well said.

Shasta your post was right on.

Shasta your post was right on.

 you cannot really condsider a physical cue negitive the pager is the the same as your cell phone set on vibrate so the dog learns that is you communicating with him ,by turning it off he is gaining a better understanding of what you expect not trying to escape the horrilbe correction since its not a correction its a cue and I understand what your saying regarding the principles of conditioning but this falls outside the box its positve in the sense many dogs seem thrilled to be able to finally understand the humans. if answering your cell phone is negitive than I suppose this is too  If someone has a dog thats scared of a pager that dog must have some weak nerves I have used them since dogtras inception and do not see dogs afraid of it barring a few Goldens but they are notoriously sensitive and get over it quickly I rarely use the cont. the method of teaching them to turn off low level stimulus is fairly outdated and not needed most of the time the theory was to use the lowest level the dog could feel.they can all feel the pager it is overt.., you can add the nick later after you have produced expectation with the pager  .stimulus is only upsetting to dogs is it is unexpected and cannot be controlled ,the advantage it has over other methods is its impersonal, consistent and not affected by distance or the fact the leash is off ,and is a commonality between all handlers  allowing even children seniors and people with disabilities to handle a dog that is trained and is the only effective method to train deaf dogs ,the principles are the dog says "I behave this way because I am succesful and this is my habit '' not ""I behave this way because I fear punishment'' the collar is only going to amplify your skill .If someone does not know how to play the guitar getting an electric guitar will only make the lack of ability more obvious and yes they should all be collar conditioned in a ''three action introduction'' program always introducing the collar on leash by virtue of the behavior ''come to/with me'' I have used on hundreds of dogs with all kinds of issues its a remarkable fascinating tool that affects a permenant behavior change allows the owners to work them at home like a Pro since they have the right tool for communication and reinforcement,,like any tool it can be misused but if someone did it would make their lack of skill so obvious they would resort to something else like cranking them around on a prong collar,and to me worrying about people who do not use them right would be like spending all my time talking about how people misuse cars by driving like idiots

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