V Palme vom Wildsteiger Land - Page 2

 Thanks, everyone it is all becoming clearer now! 

Yellowrose, sorry if I made you work, LOL, I just  really want to keep on learnin' is all!   

No problem, this is what our base is for, and I love digging in all the pedigrees...They are all filled with such great dogs, you can never not want to know all you can take in....I can spend hours looking at pedigrees and comparing and checking hips and colors in the ancesters....

It is time consuming but helps understand and we have some very experienced breeders from Germany, Belgium , Holland and other countries here that can tell us important facts.

Silbersee and Bob-O, and others can always make it very interesting to forge ahead and learn as much as you can.

Abd one who I miss is Uli     ..dont know where he went...

Palme vom Wildsteiger Land:

Most people only think of her as the mother of Uran and his sister Ulme and the famous (or infamous?) Q-litter von Arminius. But she was a lot more! She produced a lot of good offspring and together with her wonderful mother VA-Fina vom Badsee was the foundation of the Wildsteiger Land kennel. Everything that kennel produced (and other kennels as well) was based on it.

Example: Palme, when bred to VA-Ex Schlumborn produced the P-litter (Valli and Vedor - who btw went to Tracy Bullinger). Valli was kept by the Wildsteiger Land kennel. She produced daughter Panja out of VA-Yago vom Wildsteiger Land. Panja went to another kennel and became the foundation there. She produced World Siegerin VA-1 Anschy von der Magistrale, out of VA-2 Karly von Arminius. But... All these dogs (sires and dams) are out of the same lines and linebred on Palme.

Next example: The also wellknown T-litter vom Wildsteiger Land, also out of Palme by Ingo Haus Voegele: Tanni, Tigrise, Tito! Tanni is the mother of Vax von den Dolomiten who is known as a great female producer, namely VA-Kerrie vom Lechtal, V-Krafta von der Urbecke and VA-Nicki vom Wildsteiger Land among others. VA-Nicki produced the I-litter Wildsteiger Land out of VA-Leif von der Noriswand which produced the two sisters VA-Irana and V-Irina. Irana was owned by George Foreman and unfortunately did not pass bitework at the USA Sieger Show. Irina is the mother of V-Aiko vom Goldnen Zweig. Back to the T-litter! Sister Tigrise is the mother to V-1 Cim vom Ecknachtal, a very important son of Cello vd Roemerau (closely linebred 3-2 on Palme). Brother Tito was sold to Sweden but produced the great French dog with the long name: Diego du Village le Plus Long d'Alsace.

And yet another example: Palme's son Golf vom Wildsteiger Land produced a daughter named Belli who in turn is the mother of VA-Cash vom Wildsteiger Land .

Palme's famous son is Uran, of course. We all know his legacy. His sister VA-Ulme produced Lauser vom Wildsteiger Land who is the sire of Eiko and Evi vom Daenischen Hof (the foundation for that breeder). Ulme's son Bill vom Wildsteiger Land is the sire of Baffi Berrekasten who is the grandmother of VA-Timo vom Berrekasten. Ulme's daughter Venja produced Cliff vom Huehnegrab. Ute (sister to Uran and Ulme) had a daughter named Kessy, who in turn was bred to Golf (Palme's son). Their daughter Flora vom Wildsteiger Land (closely linebred on Palme 2-3) had a daughter named V-Freda del Pellegrino in Italy, who is the mother of VA-Quartz dei Templari.

Regarding the Q-Litter von Arminius: There were 6 puppies in that litter and all became producers in their own merit. We all know what Quando produced (owner: Leonhardt Schweikert). Brothers Quino (owner: Heinz Reininger) and Queno (owner: Iris Martin) are lesser known (I only know of Queno's son Fimo aus der Eremitenklause), brother Quindo (owner: Hermann Martin) went to Italy. Quena was owned by Hans Peter Rieker of Bad-Boll kennels, Quana (also owned by Heinz Reininger) went on to make history for him by producing Cello vd Roermau and Hexe vd Roemerau (mother of Hanno vd Wienerau,  Nina, Nick, Natz and Nando vd Roemerau, Pele von Oxsalis). Quina, Vice Young Dog Siegerin in 1983, is the better known of the three sisters. She produced her two famous sons VA-Mark vom Haus Beck and VA-Yago vom Wildsteiger Land. If anybody is wondering about the different kennel names of her offspring: It was (is) common among friends to lease females. Since there have been comments on the Q-litter producing workability, it should be noted that Quina was first surveyed into KKL2 by judge Peter Arth, because she only received a sufficient. A year later, she was upgraded to KKL1 under a different Koermeister which I don't understand. The SV rule states that the dog has to be presented under the same judge for an upgrade. But it was in the

Sorry, my post was too long and cut off!

Continued...

Regarding the Q-Litter von Arminius: There were 6 puppies in that litter and all became producers in their own merit. We all know what Quando produced (owner: Leonhardt Schweikert). Brothers Quino (owner: Heinz Reininger) and Queno (owner: Iris Martin) are lesser known (I only know of Queno's son Fimo aus der Eremitenklause), brother Quindo (owner: Hermann Martin) went to Italy. Quena was owned by Hans Peter Rieker of Bad-Boll kennels, Quana (also owned by Heinz Reininger) went on to make history for him by producing Cello vd Roermau and Hexe vd Roemerau (mother of Hanno vd Wienerau,  Nina, Nick, Natz and Nando vd Roemerau, Pele von Oxsalis). Quina, Vice Young Dog Siegerin in 1983, is the better known of the three sisters. She produced her two famous sons VA-Mark vom Haus Beck and VA-Yago vom Wildsteiger Land. If anybody is wondering about the different kennel names of her offspring: It was (is) common among friends to lease females. Since there have been comments on the Q-litter producing workability, it should be noted that Quina was first surveyed into KKL2 by judge Peter Arth, because she only received a sufficient. A year later, she was upgraded to KKL1 under a different Koermeister which I don't understand. The SV rule states that the dog has to be presented under the same judge for an upgrade. But it was in the year 1983 and 1984. Maybe things were different back then.

When you follow all these above mentioned lines and realize that they were continously bred to one another, you will see that it is not possible to avoid Palme!! She is actually the one who started the modern showlines. The only dogs which did not contain Palme or her mother Fina were VA-Fanto vom Hirschel (and brother Frei) and VA-Fando v. Suedblick (but Fando's grandsire is Palme's sire - Nick vd Wienerau, who was a top producer and owned by Baldur Schulte (Hirschel); sadly Nick was poisoned in his kennel).

Chris

Yellowrose & Silbersee, thank you for the history. It is always fascinating to learn more about the foundations of our beloved breed. To me it is like reading Genesis, this one begat him who begat him, etc.,....to me that is the most wonderful part of this board. Any time you feel like expounding, I'm all ears. Thanks again, jackie harris 

Thanks, Kalibeck!

I just noticed that I have a couple of typos in my post. I apologize but it does get dizzying to write all these names.

1) Palme, when bred to VA-Ex vom Schlumborn produced the V-litter (not the P-litter).

2) The Q-litter von Arminius had 7 puppies, not 6. Four males (Quando, Queno, Quino, Quindo) and three females (Quina, Quena, Quana).

Sorry, Chris

Thanks so very much Silbersee/  You  read my mind...I was hoping you would do just what you did.....

Taking us thru the ancestry and who owned each is like being a little closer to the breed...When I bough Bear, I was astounded with the mix of the lines...I began to study the Uran v WildsteigerLand line...It took me forever to not spell

the name wrong...I always wanted to spell it    WildersteigerLand.....wilder  was more to my liking , I guess,, BUt i had to erase and rewrite lots of pedigrees as I couldnt get it out ouf my mind...thru the years as I acquired Dieter and lo and behold,   there was Wildsteigerland again.....

I got embarrassed on time when someone said to me  ,,oh we dont want a pup from you, you raise showline dogs...I went you got to be kidding.....If i had a dog on my place that didnt work ,,you would be the first to know it....I was fairly new to showline and being the foundation of mine is from old west german show  / Busecker Schloss and Wiethurchen , in part....I actually didnt know of only show...my lines are all blended with both and they all have no soft or gentle traits to any of them....so I got busy and did some more study into the WIldsteigerland offspring....

Hope Beetree now sees things a bit more .

THANKS CHR

YELLOWROSE

 Yellowrose and Silbersee, 

I've been tending a sick kid, and just now got to look at all the great history Silbersee, (you are too kind to take the time to be so thorough, I just knew there had to be something special about Palme). I'm going to print it out and study it poolside, and yes, the fog is lifting! 

Thanks again.

thanks very much i found it very interesting and helpful

silbersee and yellowrose - WOW! great info! i love reading about the different dogs when people bring them up. when ever that happens, i go look at angus's pedigree. so many of those names are in his pedigree! (of course, MY dog is the mutant-lol; oversized, longcoat, easty-westy, mild hd -BUT he is beautiful and a fabulous boy). i do enjoy seeing all those famous names in his lineage.  thanks for  sharing all your knowledge!