Training question in grip improvement - Page 2

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Hi Chris,

I would want to hear more of the training behind this dog. What age was she started? How much bitework training has she been exposed to?

My experience is that the genetic componant of grips is there early on. If they are full and hard, only bad training wrecks it. If it is little mouthy, training can improve it.

Don't take this the wrong way, but for me, if the dog has always been this way or has had very little bite training, I would not waste any more time on her. Find a different job for her.

Just an opinion from very little information.

Get A Real Dog: My experience is that the genetic componant of grips is there early on.

Chris, I just visited your website and see that you have 2 young females born in the same time frame (11/06). Is the grip problem with Lissy or Mona?

Louise, it is neither Mona nor Lissy. Mona is in Germany already and doing well in training and Lissy will be going soon,  when Joe flies over this summer to see my parents. It is a littermate to Lissy who I am undecided with. She is not on my website. You know as well as I do how much it costs for training and titling. Leah is a great dog, very outgoing, sociable and active. Her sister Lissy is different: That girl holds on and is absolutely crazy about bitework. She also has defense as well, Leah does not at all. It is amazing how different two sisters can be. The things they have in common are their hyperactivity and dominance. Both are dominant which they show toward over odgs (but never towards each other, strange isn't) and both can take corrections quite well.

GARD: Leah has not been exposed to anything major yet. You have to know that we had intentions to send her to a friend in Germany who has had some of my dogs in the past. But contrary to some beliefs, you can not send a dog to Germany who will not bite with a good grip. No reputable trainer would accept such a dog. That dog would be sent back after a couple of months training without seeng improvements. Our friend does not want any formal training on a dog at all, but bitework to keep up with drives and to teach correct grips. I discussed Leah with him, when I went over to Germany last month and he basically said that it would be a wast of time and money if she does not hold on. He further stressed that we needed to do a lot of "carrying" exercises outside the training field. You might be right with the "genetic component". Leah has a "chopper" mentality: Throwing a ball or a stick, she runs after it, grabs it, holds it for 5 to 10 seconds and spits out. Then, she is after something new, another ball or even a buzzing insect. That is why I call her the dog with ADHD. Very frustrating! So, I was hoping for some advice on improvements in grip work and how to get her to carry. Otherwise, I will have to find a new job elsewhere for her, which would be a shame.

Hodie, the "helper" work so far was only done by Joe (my better half) and another friend which she has known well. There are no confidence issues there. But we might try to go to somebody else just to try. We have also tried the approach with a second dog, which only served more of a distraction. Maybe, she needs to go back on the tie-out. There is a club in Germany where we go to for training and they always tie young dogs or older puppies out just to watch the training activities, nothing else. These dogs do nothing but watch everything from the sidelines for an hour or so.

Thanks for the responses I aready got, by mail and pm. We will check her mouth carefully, but I doubt that there is anything. I have heard of these kind of cases too. A friend in Germany had a dog with the same problem and found out that he had tonsilitis. After the tonsils were taken out, the dog was fine.

Happy training everybody, we will take Leah out again today.

Chris

Well Chris the only thing I can think of to try is..........

Don't back tie. Use a handler. Make a flirt pole with something easy to bite. I like to use something that has girth to it so that it fills the dogs mouth, yet is very soft to bite. Sometimes, a burlap rag is just not satisfying.

Work her up, I would frustrate the hell out of her. Maybe even tease her up till she is crazy, then put her in a crate for a minute. You might even want to do this two or three times before she gets a bite. When you do give her the bite, immediately get the dog moving with the object in her mouth. the helper should go with you while GENTLY giving quick jerks with his end of the flirt pole.

If you get the carry, just one or two bites, put her up for awhile. Keep them real short. If you don't get the carry or she spits it out, pull her back and tease her all the way to the crate. The point is to frustrate her so much she is dying to get it and when she does, she gets to relieve that frustration with the carry. If she doesn't want to hold on, she doesn't get to play.

I have an ADD dog. No problem in the bitework, but if we are just playing tug, or OB she gets bored and distracted very easy.

It can be very frustrating I know. Good luck but to me this dog has "Narc dog" written all over her.

IMO, not wanting to hold on has nothing to do with either lack of courage or prey drive. It seems more to do with genetic "hard wiring". For example. I mentioned earlier on this thread about my now 12-year-old bitch (Kirschental parents--both HGH--one was SchH3). She is a full, younger sister to Farus Kirschental--supposedly a pretty damned tough dog--reportedly used by folks with working lines.

Eike has intense prey drive. When I get ready to take her somewhere (especially, for a ride in the van), I have to let her hold onto her leash and let her take me for a walk--all the while she is squealing happily. Otherwise, she will grab (more if a sharp pinch than a full-mouthed grip) me by the sleeve or forearm. I have to turn my side or back to her as she rushes towards me to greet me when I go outside where she has been for several hours. When she is crated in the van and a bicyclist or pedestrian passes nearby, the whole van shakes as Eike seeks to intimidate the poor, unsuspecting soul!

When she was ~9 months old (and had been training in herding since she was 4 months), she managed to totally "take down" a huge, uncooperative ram. This ended her herding training because my trainer friend with the sheep nearly had a heart attack when pulling Eike off the sheep.

Anyhow, as a youngster, Eike was definitely not lacking in courage. I figure that, with her herding heritage, she was hardwired to grip the sheep but not to hold on for long. She also had intense search drive in tracking.

At her breeder (co-owner) insistence, I sent her to German for schutzhund titling (he thought that Ulf Kinzel charged too much for HGH training). What a shame--she would have had no problem with the protection work associated with the HGH.

When Eike came home, I could see that she had been trained with way too much compulsion and had been rewarded (with a tug, ball, or food) for attention/focus only while in a stationary position and not while heeling.

The German trainer said that Eike had no problems with bitework on the home field. However, the grip problems occurred on a strange field with a strange helper (such as is required for the BS in Germany--where the dog must work with a landesgruppen helper--never on the home field with the familiar club helper). So, Eike returned to the USA with only a SchH1 and with a BS never attempted. Training at the local, club level was unreliable and did not support her continued training.

The only other suggestion I have for your work with Leah is to do no obedience work with her. This may make her more interested in her expectations of rewards from her handler and less likely to focus on the helper and the sleeve. Otherwise, you may wish to consider HGH for Leah.

Chris, Larsson is more as you describe Lissy. He wakes me in the morning with his tug toy in his mouth and his face in my face.  He can't wait to start the day with a game! The harder we play tug, the more he holds and he enjoys. He will NOT  give up the toy until I ask him to "out" or "aus" or just "give it". Once he's released to me, I make him wait a minute after he's given it up to me, he   will sit and stare intently at the toy, and then we start the game over again. I always make him work for it by moving fast,  run or making him jump, the more difficult I make it for him to get it, the happier he is. When he finally wins, he'll trot off proudly with his prize, always looking back at me, and then comes right back with it for more play. We play this game at least 20 times a day. He's a joy!

Hello Chris, I have seen this in many dogs at different clubs, it is not uncommon in dogs that start in schH a little later than young puppies.  I don't know if this is the situation with your dog.  I generally back up in training and go to a tug.  I will attach a leash or long line to the tug and work the dog in prey.  I make the dog miss several times and get it worked up.  Then I present the tug for a bite, I don't slip the tug right away.  I move in a circle with the dog, not facing the dog, so the dog is slightly behind me and I don't make eye contact as I move in the circle still holding the tug.  I then slip the tug and have the handler run with the dog.  While the handler is running with the dog I grab the line attached to the tug.  If the dog is holding the tug, I will apply gentle pressure while pulling on the line as the handler moves.  If the dog drops the tug I immediately jerk the line, stealing the tug back from the dog and the tug comes back to life.  I then cause the dog to miss the tug several times before giving a bite.  The next bites becomes progressively harder for the dog to keep the tug.  Still working in prey, as I run with the handler and dog carrying the tug I will suddenly pull on the line and reel the dog into me, starting the fight over again.  

I then progress to the handler running with the dog past me and I grab the tug and start the fight again.  At this stage, I will pet the dog while it is calmly holding the tug.  I will keep the tug moving while doing this if necessary.  The goal is to get the dog to hold the tug calmly and to be secure with the helper.  I will then transition this to the sleeve and work the sleeve as a tug initially.  Again, this is all done in prey and meant to be fun for the dog.  When the dog learns the game holding the sleeve is no longer a problem.  This can take several sessions, usually the dog has a breakthrough session and suddenly gets it.  If the is high drive be patient.  

Now, there are dogs who are so high in defense (civil) that they drop the sleeve because it is the man that they truly want and not the sleeve.   If this is the case I will work the dog differently, but the goal will still be to get the dog to grip the sleeve, fuul, hard and calm. 

In regards to the grip, I absolutely believe there is a large genetic component.  Full, hard grips are usually genetic.   However, good training can makes grips better just as poor training/decoy work and even handling can make great grips chewy and weak.  Nurture in my opinion is almost as important as nature in bitework.  

Jim

Hello everybody,

    I have same problem ,my 12months girl is very brave she jump into the pool to grip the toy without any push but when she go on the ground she leave it on the ground do not fight with the toy,anyone can help?

Original poster,

I think it is too difficult to determine the cause of the issue over the net. My suggestion to you would be to find a top notch trainer in your area and get some first hand help in evaluating the cause and correcting the issue if possible. It would be genetics, helper work, training, or a whole host of things.

When you ask for help on the net with a training issue like this, I feel that you are going to get a host of suggestions and any number of them may (or may not) work, through combining 5-6 solutions in a "custom fix" will probably not accomplish a darn thing. Find a person you trust  with a proven track record - someone you can get face to face with and get some experienced help (it may cost, but it will be worth it if you pick the right help), or you run the possibility of aggravating the situation or causing other problems in the attempt to solve the original one.

Best of luck to you.