Recessive Gene Question - Page 2

I just put a Willis book up for sale.  The German Shepherd Dog:  a genetic history.  1991.  Like new.  Make offer.

That puppy is absolutely beautiful!

BUT, if I wanted a pup for breeding purposes, I wouldn't want to see
that amount of white on the chest, and also the feet.

My last litter of Labs had a boy that had a big splash of white down his chest,
I sell everyone limited reg. until the puppy buyers do pre-limbs or cert. and then
I can reverse it.    (Most people want a family pet/companion)   Anyway, I wouldn't
have sold him for breeding purposes as I have seen in the past from breeding
various breeds of rabbits that markings are passed on each generation in one way
or another.

The white spots do gradually seem to get smaller as the dog grows.

It also has nothing to do with the health or temperament of the dog, it
just has to do with breeding to standard, in reference to the small white
spot is permissible, small is the key word....

Here's a pic of the lab pup, his personality was unbelievably calm & laid back!

Cute puppies, Mirasmom. If I was looking for a Lab that would be exactly the one I'd want.

The white spot on the chest is tolerated and if it is not too significant, it won't be critized. The same goes for the white toes and feet. Our sable male has a white spot on the chest and a couple light toes and he passes that on to a couple of his offspring. He was never faulted for it. Lots of dogs in Germany have them.

Look at this dog: http://www.pedigreedatabase.com/gsd/pedigree/394766.html . He was a top rated dog in Europe. Due to his dark pigment, the white spot is very obvious. It would be interesting to see how a black dog with a white spot is rated in the show ring, but black dogs are generally at the end of a class anyway, unfortunately.

When I picked up my GSD pup he was 100% all black everywhere.   Since then at about 8 months he has light brown between his toes and a small light brown spots behind his two front legs.

Is that a common trait as they grow older?

In the end Solid black is solid black and this pup was misrepresented by the breeder! Wondering if the buyer had seen photos of the parents?

strongbond- If you're refering to the pup my friend had a deposit on yes the buyer did see pictures of the parents. Both are solid blacks that's why I asked if this was some sort of recessive gene that is possibly carried by one or both parents to cause more than 1 pup to have such a significant amount of white.  Was it "misrepresentation" on the breeders part, lack of knowing this pup doesn't constitute being "solid black" or lack of understanding that one who is looking for a potential breeding prospect would have a significant problem with all that white fur??  Who knows??  I know one thing's for sure if I paid for a SOLID BLACK dog and that is what I was expecting only to pick up one that was Black and white I would be pissed off as all hell.  Most people probably would not have asked for additional pictures right before the pup was to be sent; good thing in this case the breeder provided them and it was discovered before the shipping expenses ect were incurred.

Is it possible for a dog to be damn near all solid black with for instance a tiny amount of brown on the toes as Larry described and no where else and this dog to be considered a different color other than BLACK?  Would it be a black/tan?  Just curious now with Larry's post.

Larrydee,

It's not uncommon for black GSDs to develope lighter brown hairs between their toes, behind the legs, and around the vent. Usually it's isolated to just a few hairs, and it isn't necessary to worry about it. The dog is still considered a black GSD. It's from a previous post which turned into an excellent thread about colors [original post: the Panda Shepherd: an observation in genetics]

darylhret: The dog in the pic below had very distinct wheat color hair between his toes, but genetically is black.  http://www.pedigreedatabase.com/gsd/pedigree/491691.html

Bicolor dogs generally have lighter color around the "vent" under the tail.  Genetic black dogs can still have varying degrees of discoloration, see images here;

http://www.wildhauskennels.com/forposting/kalibleedthru1.jpg

http://www.wildhauskennels.com/forposting/kalibleedthru2.jpg 

http://www.wildhauskennels.com/forposting/kalibleedthru3.jpg

Agar,

>"they said when they were holding the puppies their hands covered the pups chest so they had NO idea of the white spot."

Sure. And I have a bridgefor sale in NYC.

It sounds more like they were hoping it would go away on its own. The white spot and "milk toes" generally fade as the dog ages, but don't always vanish completely. Either way, it's a fault. The seriousness of it depends on the size and amount of white.

I am leery of the white spot. Regardless of congenital defects that may or may not correlate with it (don't have too much experience on that one), I would not use the dog for breeding because the white spot is a relatively common recessive trait, and there is a high likelihood of producing more white-spotted individuals. Since there are already too many pet-quality dogs out there that need good homes, I don't want to contribute to the problem by breeding out-of-standard GSDs that wouldn't be of showable quality.

jc.carroll

                The pictures of the dog in Wild haus kennels is similar to my GSD but he has no where near the amount of tan hair behind the legs as that dog just a small amount of tan hair behind the front legs.   He is Phranicni straze/Tierkerhook.Was wondering if the light tan hair is a genetic trait that shows up on some of the Czech Pohranicni straze dogs?

Hmmm... Black is a pure recessive trait. I've always had sables and black'n'reds, so I haven't had occasion to get up close and personal with the feet of solid-black dogs. "Oh, that's a lovely black german shepherd, ma'am. May I look at the hair between his toes?" *laughs*

I don't think it's bloodline specific; I haven't heard anything about that, though I've heard that even AM. bred GSDs can have brown hairs in their armpits, between the toes, and around the tail area.

Here's another pic of Rook Van Den Heuvel -- an all-black GSD with brown toe hair. It shows his feet better. He has far less brown than the dog with brown "socks."

(link)