N.American studs producing great police/military offspring - Page 2

Once one of the "true greats" is dead, he is not going to come back to life, he is in the ground for good. UNLESS, his semen was stored! The CAMELOT system of frozen canine semen has a 94% conception rate and a average of 7 pups per litter, far superior to straws anyday! They really know their stuff.

Anyhow we are way off topic!  Let's get back on topic and get some good conversation going!

How about all those world class producers availible in America??                                                                                                   Who does america think is the next   Mink, Fero, or Troll  etc.  ???                                                                                                   Who has a good record of producing    "REAL" dogs that are not  just "sport" dogs that are only obsessed with the sleeve? 

Their has to be some more out there.                                                                        

There are some very strong dogs doing "sport" and that are Schh3, not working police dogs - but really it's all individual opinion in the end.  For my own program I look for dogs (males and females) with power in the gripwork, intensity and aggression in the guarding, not barking for the prey, not focusing on the sleeve but always on the man.  The target for the grips is the man (in the middle) not the sleeve (to the side) you can see this especially in the courage test.  The dogs standing on the podium are not the dogs I  look at (except usually in passing) for my program - I like to use the dogs who may not be getting the points, because of their drive, power and aggression - the points "go out the window" but for breeding these are the valuable dogs. 

My own dog will bite for real, has been worked/tested with the police and with hidden sleeve etc.  I would also say Eick v Berger Hochburg Schh3 would be another to consider, a very serious, powerful dog.   The dogs I've seen coming directly from Ernst (on your list) and Lewis have been more "sporty" IMO, whereas dogs coming directly from Mink (not through Lewis, Ernst) and Crok (mink son) have been more serious, powerful, hard.  I have liked the combination of Fero (through Troll, or Fero via female lines) combined with Mink (through Crok not Lewis) for the same.  Also look for Arek Stoffelblick to bring aggression, hardness (and handler hardness) to the table.

But in the end it still is personal opinion, you have to see the dog work and decide if that particular stud dog is what you want, and then look at his pedigree.

molly

Eichenluft Working German Shepherds

http://workinggermanshepherd.com

Are you guys putting "sleeve focusing" dogs out of the equation merely because they would love the sleeve and would go after it rather than the "man"? I would say there's a lot more to it than that. Take a dog up against the helper he's known for quite a while, and has an absolute love for the work...does he still have to focus on the man or would you forgive him if he happened to think it's a rule to stay on the sleeve? And how about the dog that focuses on the man, all the time--is he a REAL dog or could he just be a defensive dog on the edge, who could crack if the pressure was amped up?

The whole dog should always be judged...not just one facet of his behaviour he happened to be doing at the time.

just to clarify guys.

The thread is searching out availible studs in the U.S. that are not only incredible dogs, but good producers as well.

The stud can be trained in sport thats fine, it doesn't have to itself be a police dog. We are looking for dogs that are true "fighters" in there heart. It could be a WUSV winner, IF it would love to bite a man for real and had excellent aggression.

The sport (shutzhund) was created after the fact for the breeds benifit, the breed was not created for schutzhund. Sport is a good thing don't get me wrong, but to many people breed to get the "points" and not to produce a incredibly tough dog like MINK for instance. Look at those incredibly tough, world class brawlers that were around 15-25 years ago, they are all in the ground now. We need some more dogs like that, we shouldn't have to read about them in articles, they should be taking someone to the ground as we speak.

In short we are looking for the studs that are and produce dogs that are so good and tough at what they do they are just bad news for any helper or criminal. one that takes quite a experienced person to even control. A stud who would put a sly grin on face of Stephanitz! Who is the next up and coming legendary stud of america, let's hear the opinions!

"The dogs I've seen coming directly from Ernst (on your list) and Lewis have been more "sporty" "

Having bred 2 litters out of Ernst, I would disagree wholeheartedly with this. I own a female, and my husband owns a male, and both are far from sporty.  They will bite for real in a heartbeat.  Most of their littermates (though certainly not all) also have a bit of an edge to them and strong aggression in protection, not prey, and will bite for real as well.

Swift

One thing to remember is that Germany is the size of Wisconsin.  I think that if we kept every GSD in the USA in the state of Wisconsin, it would be a hell of alot easier to get the appropriate males to the right females.  Like Marlene stated, she is around 8 hours away from the nearest airport.  In Europe, do you know how far you can get in an 8 hr drive?  It takes 8 Hrs to drive from San Francisco to Los Angeles.  America is huge and the dogs are spread out across this country.  Offcourse it is easier in Germany.

Second point is that it is really nobody's business what someone does with their property.  If I bought Orry Antverpa and wanted to shave poodle balls on his ass, that is my choice.  If I want to do a few select breedings a year and not do outside, that is my choice too.  If it is so valuable for you to get this blood that I own, why not sign up on the waitinglist and wait patiently like a good boy.  If you don't like that, take out a loan and import your own stud.

Just recently, a man purchased a private video of Marilyn Monroe having sex.  He paid $1.5 million for the tape and he will not let anyone view the tape.  What is his reasoning?  WHo cares!  He can do whatever he wants. 

"The dogs I've seen coming directly from Ernst (on your list) and Lewis have been more "sporty" "

Having bred 2 litters out of Ernst, I would disagree wholeheartedly with this. I own a female, and my husband owns a male, and both are far from sporty.  They will bite for real in a heartbeat.  Most of their littermates (though certainly not all) also have a bit of an edge to them and strong aggression in protection, not prey, and will bite for real as well.""

The dogs I've seen that came from Ernst (some from your program) are very nice temperamented, well-rounded balanced dogs, but for me they are 'sporty' and not what I like to see in power, aggression and nerve stength in the gripwork.  I have seen others from Ernst/Lewis that are the same.  Nice sport dogs, nothing wrong with them at all for sport, but for breeding..... - notice I have never used either Ernst nor Lewis in my program for this reason. 

Again, it's an individual opinion and that's what I have seen for myself from these lines.

molly

"If I bought Orry Antverpa and wanted to shave poodle balls on his ass, that is my choice"

LOL holey crap! Don, you owe me a new computer screen! 

Swift,

I was gonna just walk away and leave this alone but nope, ain't gonna happen.   This breed was not created for Schutzhund, that is correct.  The breed was created to herd my friend.   You could not put a grin on the face of Stephanitz if you tried.  In short I dont think you know anything useful about the German Shepherd dog.   Some guy came around here not too long ago who kind of wanted the same thing,  some kind of man eater he had made up in his sleep.  Thats not what the GSD is all about.  I know there are a lot of very capable working k-9's who take down bad guys, you disrespect them.  Maybe you just don't come across well and need re-think  your request for a hard dog.   I told you that you had attitude and you blew it off, but yes you do and I wouldn't sell you a dog.  I think you would abuse it trying to get it to kill someone.   Just remember what goes around comes around.  You wanted opinions and thats mine based on your statements.

Brent.

"wanted to shave poodle balls on his ass, that is my choice"

I just found my next way to humiliate Xandor.  Spring is here.  Time for a new 'do.