when to get involved? - Page 2

Thanks everyone, that is what I figured out. Usually I can read body language pretty darn well, just that once a year when something escapes me, so subtle I don't understand the entire phrase or paragraph one said to the other with that super subtle movement.  I know that dogs speak volumes with a subtle movement and humans can't see all the movement interactions because we are more vocal. I recently took a sign language course and learned that it is not just the sign the hands are making but the body language as well. (I am terrible at remembering the signs but the lessons are not wasted). I am moving out to a new place with lots more room for outdoor runs and kennels as well as a huge fenced in area and that will make it easier to keep them seperated. Just tattoo D--b A-s across my forehead for hoping I could teach them to all get along.

I will only post once here because it will be a loosing battle.

Unless you are dealing with game bred bull breeds or very hard and dominate dogs ( I am sure most here believe their dogs are alot tougher than they really are,) They will work it out. I guarantee they will work it out. Most people don't have the stomach for it. If you don't that is fine but then don't let them run together.

The problems lie when you have people who don't kennel their dogs and want them all to run together. If you have dogs that fight, and you don't let them work it out, they will continue to fight. Easy fix. Kennel your dogs and don't let them run together.

 Tough decision is when one gets old and the young buck decides it is his time. When a dog gets really old, the young ones will gang up on the old one. It is nature for pack animals to eliminate the "weak link". It is just nature.

So it boils down to if you don't want to let them work it out and/or pay for the vet bills. Keep your dogs seperated.

I had father and son Boxers. The old one always put his son in check, never seperated them. I moved in with a guy who had a female Rott. New territory, with a female, young dog turned two, and decided it was his time. He was getting the better of the old man so I stepped in. Wasn't going to let my old boy get beat up. The next time the female Rott jumped on the old guy too. I knew it was time for a changing of the guard. Kept them seperated until I had to put the old man down.

PS

Before my young dog decided it was his time, these dogs worked it out with the worst injury being a cut to the face and a ear layed open. People freak out if their dog gets so much as a nick with a little blood.

If your 14 year old son comes home from school with a shiner on his eye, it isn't the end of the world.

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GARD, the problem we have here is an owner who is incapable of separating them if things get violent without injury.  Mindhunt has even stated that these fights do include wounds and injuries (not just to the dogs, either) so these are not WWE matches where no one gets hurt and it's all lots of noise.  Dogs get hurt and the person gets hurt.  What would Mindhunt do if she takes your advice, lets them work it out, then the next fight something changes, one dog is going in for the kill, and she cannot separate them without severely injuring herself?  GARD, *you* may be physically and mentally able to separate two dogs that are out for blood but unfortunately not all of us are or know what would work to break up a real fight.  What you do may work for your situation and your dogs, but I think discretion is key here because of all the variables.  It would be dangerous for Mindhunt to continue dealing with her dogs the same as usual, for ALL parties.

Some people can never work out their arguments, nor can some dogs.  We are not expected to like everyone we meet, nor should we expect the same of our dogs.  Thankfully, we do not rely on our dogs to be a functioning pack so we can separate them to keep the peace.  I also agree with reexamining the leadership role (or lack thereof); maybe there is some leadership variable that's lacking.  Perhaps working on control exercises (while dogs are muzzled) such as long downs in the same room will help instill in them that yes, you call the shots.  I would still separate them regardless except when you are able to supervise AND you are confident in your ability to control them even if the Fight of the Year breaks out.  Good luck, Mindhunt, the important thing is that you keep your guys safe, your old guy enjoying his senior years without worry of having to smack that damn whippersnapper back in his place, and that YOU stay safe and in one piece.  Pick and choose your battles, this is one better left avoided completely.

I have read some of the additional comments and I do agree that most fights are lots of drama and a few "shiners" added in for good measure (yes my son has come home with a shiner and no it wasn't the end of the world, he has since learned to block a lot quicker ) 

I know my dogs' body language, my trainer insists on learning this well and works hard with us to understand it. I was complacent and a little careless when I went to intervene.  That was my mistake, not theirs'. I've always been strong enough to lift one over a fence or break the two idiots up. (years of firefighting) I also know their temperments and personalities well.  I know my dogs haven't a mean vicious bone in their body but I forgot an important rule, take your ego out, I got a little complacent with breaking up a fight and wasn't as careful as I usually am. Which underlines the other rule, it's always the handler's fault until proven otherwise, and it was most definately mine. I am embarrassed when I think back on the incident , but I relearned a valuable lesson, they are dogs, not people.  No matter how much I want something for them, if it isn't within the doggie realm of behaviors and thinking, it isn't going to happen.  Their behavior is my responsibility.  I have the scars to remind me to never again become complacent or careless, and yes, I still trust my dogs with my life. This has helped me to become a better, more responsible dog handler. I will never again take them for granted, it takes hard consistent work, with mutual respect and love and lots and lots of time.

Ok off my soapbox. I thank you all for your honest advice.

Good post bancroft.

Yellowrose- when we bought our first GSD years ago, the "breeder" told us the same thing. Being very young and inexperienced we followed her horrible advice to disastrous results.

Back to topic, I prefer my dogs to figure out their own order. However, I do not tolerate fights of any kind in my home. Any excessive bullying results in a firm "no" and they get sent to their bed for a long down stay to cool off and remember who the boss is- me.

The trick is to know your dogs, to completely identify the change in vocal tone when play, even very aggressive play, gets serious. Sometimes a young, obnoxious pup needs to be put in its place by his or her elder, and that's fine, but such things should never be left unsupervised, and the owner should be able to stop/control the situation at all times.

oh and I forgot to add, I am always the alpha/leader and have to set the rules for the pack, and be consistent and fair, always giving them constructive outlets for their energy and other......issues. Thanks again everyone even though this wasn't a thread I started, I still am grateful to all.