The SV-Stud Business 2003-2007 - Page 2

Etc, etc.

 

All of a sudden, everything came to the surface, or shall we say, everything collapsed. What had been lies for many years, apparently was the truth indeed, and the evil had spread wide out. It was raining confessions. Let history take its course.

 

You once wrote me in private, you’d be interested in some particular figures for your upcoming book. (Now THAT will surprise the world!) You told me exactly what figures would be of interest. Now I trust you won’t need them anymore, but, I’m still waiting for a copy of that book. Please do advise.

 

Jan

That's probably why the S.V. could be thinking of REINSTATING   LSCs...???   Puppy production is LOW and most of the good genes are comming from the ones that are being banned from being S.V. registered....  You may not know it but the LSC registry for GSD could probably hold the link to unify Show and Workinglines since the LSC gene is common on both sides of the GSD spectrum...

Its so good to be back... :)  Now I have time researching on my beloved breed... Marci

Speaknow, genetic diversity is a term that people pick up and also not understand well. Genetic diversity is important for the species Dog. Not for different breeds of dog. Species Dog has been around for millenia and most certainly has incredible diversity, with all its breeds, cross breeds, mongrels, pariahs. Existence and overall health of species Dog is certainly not in question. Nature does not care if Dog lives only 1 or 3 or 8 years in order to propagate. As long as it does. And it does so very well. Dog also does not need Human to secure its existence. Dog needs no kennels, no gardens, no sofas, no specifically formulated diet in order to survive. Give it a dump and it will thrive. And if that should not be around Dog will find a way like it has done so effectively in its past.   The GSD as we know it has been around for only a little over a hundred years. Species Dog is not dependent on the survival of the GSD. If the GSD disappears in another hundred years no one in the big scheme of things will shed a tear, only some fanciers, and how important are they really in the big scheme of things for the species Dog...   Genetic diversity is already not given with the GSD, from the start. The genetic diversity for any breed is, by its very design, limited to the few foundation dogs that made this breed. There is an interesting site called www.gsddata.com. If you sign up as professional user (no affiliation here, but it is an interesting site with very many interesting functions), you can look up what they call a bloodline tree. Nearly all dogs go back to good old Horand. How can you increase or simply maintain genetic diversity when you only have a very limited diversity to begin with? So from the get go it has always been that re-combining that you are talking about and you will remain limited to exactly that.   Right now the professional user costs 16 Euros for the whole year. If you want to learn a little more about your dogs, it is a worth while investment IMO. To see what you would be looking at, I hope that site owner will forgive me for posting a picture of the blood line tree of my Santos.     But the question is: will that lack of diversity cause problems for any breed? Well, if you look at very isolated populations, ie the Galapagos Islands, or Madagaskar, or many other geographically isolated places, it shows that despite the lack of diversity due to such isolation there are still thriving populations. Many dog breeds formed naturally because of natural isolation. The common bicycle as we know it did not come into existence til 1890. Before that personal transportation was rather limited and people did not have the luxury to go far for breedings or send their dogs anywhere. Take the UK for example - many of their terrier breeds are named after the locality where they originated, and England is not even a big place to begin with. The locally isolated places there gave rise to certain types of dogs to emerge over time. Some food for thought...

Jantie, when people have lost their argument they usually try to pull a bunch of funny bunnies out of their hats in order to divert attention from their defeat. Yes, I asked you many, many, MANY times to actually do something worthwhile with your obsessive talents and produce something that is not tainted by your personal vendetta with the GSD, but is something that will actually be useful to breeders. Before you had a GSD you didn't give a rats a** about the dogs and any money associated with it. But you were most careful to pick the best possible prospect, even hired a purchase consultant who went with you to the breeder where you bought your pup. If your dog Indiana, who indicdentally never actually lived with you, but lived in the back yard of your father's home (albeit a very nice back yard with a beautiful lawn and large wooden kennel), had continued to become a great dog in Belgium, he had already gone SG5 at the Belgian Sieger Show after all, if he had gone VA or top V and people would have come knocking on your door for stud service, your personal GSD history would have taken a very turn. Considering that you kept tabs on every little expense that dog incurred for you, starting with having to drive to his location three times a day, you would have been more than welcoming to all the stud inquiries and the €€€€€ that would have followed. Never mind the kudos and it is rather obvious that fame is most important to you. Too bad your carefully calculated purchase did not pan out. Jantie, you are a bl**dy Hypocrite!   BTW, your so often cited university professors are indeed 'notorious', LOL. Scientists are absolutely notorious for wanting to see their names published!!! But you name NO names of ANY scientiests. Who are they? Name and contact info please! Just because you found their mailing address on google and keep spamming them with your brainfarts does not mean they support you or your theories. If there are actually any. If anything you ever produced had any validity whatsoever, you would indeed have scientists knocking down your doors in order for them to piggyback in hopes to have their names immortalized. Plus, every 'study' needs to be open to a peer review. Without naming/attaching even a single scientist, there can be no such peer review. But no scientist is willing to make such a blatant fool out of themselves and have that immortalized, like you keep doing with your far fetched 'theories'.

D.H., I believe you put that into excellent perspective.  Jantie, I look forward to seeing more of your efforts, with a little more objectivity involved.

Genetic diversity is directly relevant to the level of inbreeding that occurs after the formation of the breed, once the "stud books" have closed, and what unseen variance is lost from assortive mating.  It all depends on what is selected for, and what may be unknowingly genetically-linked to traits you've selected against.  There are many breeds that have survived well for a century or more founded by as few as a dozen breeding stock.  Even "experts" cannot seem to agree the requirements for adequate genetic diversity.

"Everybody agrees that 300 (wolves) and 30 (breeding pairs) is the absolute minimum and that 1,000 wolves is a much more viable population," ~Ed Bangs, wolf recovery coordinator for the Fish and Wildlife Service.

"The current population is genetically diverse.  All the careful planning - picking wolves from different packs in Canada - paid off." ~ Dr. Robert Wayne, Yellowstone researcher

"We believe that the original recovery goals of 300 wolves in the three states are arbitrary, inadequate and unscientific," ~Sylvia Fallon, ,conservation genetics, Natural Resources Defense Council

If you substitute the word "breed" for "unrelated breed founder" in the chart below, you can see that it's possible for a high level of genetic diversity to be maintained for many centuries based on few founders.

DH, regretfully, I fail to see relevance of your remarks relating to genetic viability of dog species as a whole. And of course genetic diversity is vital to each distinct breed as well, if not for those who wish to sustain it for its unique qualities, then for the welfare of each individual animal in it. And for those who don’t appreciate genetic diversity’s value here’s a snippet from Wiki: “Genetic diversity plays a huge role in the survival and adaptability of a species. When a species’ environment changes, slight gene variations are necessary for it to adapt and survive. A species that has a large degree of genetic diversity among its individuals will have more variations from which to choose the most fitting allele. Species that have very little genetic variation are at a great risk. With very little gene variation within the species, healthy reproduction becomes increasingly difficult, and offspring often deal with similar problems to those of inbreeding.” Then, our breed was hardly solely built from Horand, whereas the modern Wienerau animal was more directly founded on just a few select, already inbred, later animals, and so line-bred ever since. More recent temperament flaws are said to stem directly from such continued inbreeding. Here’s another snippet: "Inbreeding on such early animals such as Horan and Luchs produced some wonderful animals but it also brought about some undesirable effects. At this point Von Stephanitz bred out to animals of herding origin such as Audifax von Grafrath and Adalo von Grafrath. The result was this 1904 Sieger Aribert von Grafrath." Each of these dogs in turn sired many progeny and became pillars in the development of the German Shepherd. Von Stephanitz was a cavalry captain and was ideally suited to impose his strong will over the SV of which he was president. In this capacity and with uncompromising dedication he directed the breeding programs. The dogs of Thuringia, Frankonia, and Wurttemburg were all used, each area providing dogs which had special merits of tail and ear carriage, size, color, and temperament. Using long-haired, short-haired, and wire-haired local shepherd dogs from Wurtemberg, Thurginia, and Bavaria, von Stephanitz and other dedicated breeders produced a responsive, obedient, and handsome German Shepherd.” You may be missing the point where lack of genetic diversity in isolated populations is concerned, DH. These species largely only survive for as long as their habitats remain intact and undisturbed – over time they’ve become specialists tailored or attuned to one specific set of conditions. And the more specialized they’ve become the more susceptible they are to being wiped out by external influences/intrusions. Your views sadly fail to correspond with proper scientific findings, Daryl.

Well, I fail to see what you are disagreeing with, or in what way my views fail to correspond "with proper scientific findings".  You say Inbred, I say adapted.  Genetically diverse may mean more adaptable, but inbreeding means more adapted, or 'specialized'.

Genetic and non-genetic factors driving extinction is greatly debated.  Genetic diversity indices, such as alleic richness, are significantly higher in the wild than in captive or domesticated populations in general.  Genetic variability will decline from its ancestral levels by undergoing an amount of local adaptation, due to selection pressures like assortive mating or inbreeding.  In critically endangered populations, the viability of wild stocks can be compromised by attempts to increase their genetic diversity that show no evidence of inbreeding depression.  Such attempts promote the spread of deleterious alleles adapted to a different environment, and break down locally adapted genomes (purged of deleterious alleles) by introducing alleles adapted to a different environment, or risk local extinction due to unpredictable environmental changes to which this genetically impoverished population cannot adapt.

We are basically in agreement, you are not clear at all at what you disagree with.  If you really want a debate, I say -- genetic diversity (buzzword) is not as vital to the survival of a species as is portrayed, and there are no "proper scientific findings" that can prove it.

"SV-Stud-business" now available in PDF-format on my site: www.bloggen.be/hd

and on: www.petwatch.at

Sorry I could not yet find the time to translate, but the figures are quite universal.

Godspeed!

Jantie