Where are we going with PSA going? - Page 2

I am not trying to be argumentitve (We should not have to give a discalimer). Shelly, I respect you. You have been doing this longer than I have.

I am sincerly asking how you see different, If anything at all, between the dogs that blow though obsticals, or are not fazed by the "milk jug" VS the dogs that go into avoidance? Is there a difference in the dogs that are not fazed, the dogs that go into avoidance but deal with it with training,, and the dogs that will always try to avoid even when they have been trained and exposed to the stress, whatever that stress may be.

Shelley

A most Uninformed comment. 

Jugs filled with rocks, water, clatter sticks struck forcefully, multiple attackers, gunfire in a car scenario etc.   SCHh, much as I like it, is not really a comparison.  Its apples & Oranges.

2005 Championships.  Watch for yourself before typing nonsense.

http://uk.youtube.com/watch?v=Sfp0ZmMuWFs&feature=related

The jugs are something I expect a pup to handle with out a second glance. I have seen barrels stacked on top of eachother nocked over as a dog is doing OB and walking by. Or a sitting decoy that yells or sprays the dog and handler with a water hose. Dog shouldn't break or engage, flinch or run with his tail tucked. That's a pretty good test in my eyes anyway.

Another Regionnal Trial..  I saw luggage thrown at a dog in the last trial. You can see the multiple attackers here so many more dimension to training in the protection, as opposed to a routine in SCHh, & thats not a criticism, just fact. 

here..http://uk.youtube.com/watch?v=tFz1p1M8T0E

I understand the apples to oranges comparison, but this isn't the first time these dogs see this type of distraction.  Sch people go to the field and train under their rules of the sport.  If you placed the same rules as PSA, the Sch people would be using more jugs, barrels, hoses, clattter sticks, guns, fires, clowns, and whatever you can think of. 

I know there are  a few dogs in Sch that would fold under the pressure, but as a whole, if they are trained in this manner, most dogs would have the same reaction as long as they have solid nerves.  This is a matter of both solid nerves and solid training.  How well would a PSA dog do on a track without being trained?  Would it make him a weak dog if he didn't complete a track successfully?

No Don it would make him a dog not trained to track or weak at tracking. It's good to expose this about the dogs not hide it like some secret. Is it the dog, or is it his training or lack there of? There are however surprise senarios at each trial and the specifics are not known to the handlers, so unless you do train and show yor dog everything(not possible), you can be taken by surprise. I'm not compairing Sch to PSA, both totally different sports and I do not want to offend or run Shelley off this post Uglydog. More opinions from seasoned dog people are always welcome. When we shut people down, we can't learn from them.

All I am saying is that Sch people do not have to train for this type of work.  Sure people use Clatter sticks and will do the occasional jug, barrel , and bottle pit, but for most, it is not essential to train for this.

If you train for PSA, you have a good Idea that everything and the kitchen sink may be thrown at you.  You prepare for this and hopefully the dog will be condition to expect the unexpected.  The dog will have learned to deal with multiple threats at one time. 

Police and personal protection are not the same as Sch.  The only people that think that Sch people believe it is the same are people outside of Sch.  Most Sch people that I know would rather have their house robbed than have their valuable sport dog hurt in an altercation with a burglar.

We play by the rules!  Do you think that a 3 yr old in Iraq and a 3 yr old in USA is the same?   No!  They are both conditioned to 2 different lifestyles.  Take the kid from America and throw him in that setting.  What will be the outcome?  What would be the outcome if you switched them at birth?  Would the Iraqi baby do better if placed in Iraq after living in the US for three years?   

My point exactly Don, which is why I ask the question of is there a difference in the temperment of dog xyz.

The sport does not make the dog. The sport tests the dog. Every sport is different and different dogs excel in different venues.

So look to the sport as a test for the dog. GSD track and they track very well. Why, becasue that breed test includes a tracking format. But the tests lacks environmental stress and stress from the decoy varies from none to pretty tough but is limited by the sleeve vs suit.

I hear many people say it's hard to find a Mal that will track. I don't know but I have heard enough people to believe it.

My point being is I can tell you from watching the sport from it's inception, Sch bred dogs have a difficult time in the sport. Specifically the environmnetal stress. I have seen very good GSD that do not like being in closed quarters (closets, inside of cars, etc)  If you breed a dog to excell in a specific task. They will. But if that task is limited (they all have some limitation) you lose certain aspects of the dog.

Ring dogs transfer over well because of the heavy decoy pressure of ring and many dogs come from Belgian lines which breed specifically for grip and environmental stability.

Bottom line for me is a Sch courage test is not the same as a PSA or KNPV courage test. It just isn't. For me PSA is the best test of a dog we have here in the states.  Yes good Sch dogs can do PSA if they are trained for the sport.

I enjoy and respect all sports for what they are. I encourage everyone to do something with their dog, whatever that is. (I am considering trying dock diving).

Gard

Please read my above post.  Apparently we posted at the same time.

Great Point,  4 pack.   Yes indeed, there are Surprise scenarios at PSA tests.  I can see the SCHh sports  folks now, freaking out.   What! No rehearsed routine?  You mean, ....your gonna do what?!

I didnt mean to run anyone off,  but I dislike unwarranted criticism or misinformed posts about "little jugs with pebbles"  PSA is extrememly challenging for a dog & Handler.   Im addicted,  I admit.  Been at it little over 10 months & enjoy it more every outing. Good dogs & Good folks.   I wont knock any dog sports, including SCHh, Ring or otherwise,  but likewise hate to see barbs, thrown at the sport Im involved in.

I do think many working GSDs could do well,  not so sure at the advanced PSA 2/3 titles, due to the game, its so fast, response time demanded is so quick. Id like to see more GSDs.  We only have one & it is working well..   As a general rule..PSA Tends maybe to favor Mals & Dutchies as is at the higher levels, but any solid working dog can compete & is very welcomed..It is not exclusive in any way, shape or form.  

Im surprised more SCHh folks dont cross train in it. The scenarios are excellent.