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by GSD2727 on 22 February 2008 - 01:02
Oh wow Louise, you are right.... I didnt even notice that split in the bone.
Thanks for taking the time to show me!
by Petros on 22 February 2008 - 06:02
Thank you all for your comments and feedback!
Well, here are the results:
The hips, according to the SV, are a-normal.
Here is the comments (of the SV vet) regarding the elbows:
"the elbows of your dog show osteophytic lesions of about 4 mm high at the dorsal aspect of the anconeal process.
According to the rules of the IEWG this is an arthrosis grade 2 / ED 2. (Classified as "Mittlere ED")
Additionally on the left elbow the top of the medial coconoid process is missed, a typical radiological sign in cases of FCP"
When I asked for a second opinion from my vet (who specializes in orthopaedics - PhD in College of Veterinary Medicine -The Ohio State University- and, is a member of the International Elbow Working Group having attended nearly ALL seminars regarding elbow issues & grading) he stated that: By no means should these x-rays be used to grade the dog's elbows which look OK at a first glance. First of all, the positioning of the x-rays is not correct. What is needed would be a flexed lateral of 45o. Should there be any clinical findings and/or suspicions of after that, then a further investigation is suggested with 2 x-rays:
1) A "neutral lateral" 85o - 120o
2) A "craniocaudal 15o pronation" (which is the one to say that the dog has FCP) As I understand it, there is still disagreement regarding the elbow gradings. Yet, the IEWG (and SV, probably also OFA I do not know) require only a Flexed Lateral of 45o in order to decide for a dog's elbows. Strange, that the set protocols (eg Vancouver) work it out this way...by Louise M. Penery on 22 February 2008 - 20:02
I have always found elbow xrays relatively easy to read. Here are links to some great discussions of ED:
http://sacs.vetmed.ufl.edu/Lewis/Lewis-Elbows/fcp.htm http://sacs.vetmed.ufl.edu/Lewis/Lewis-Elbows/uap.htm http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Elbow_dysplasia#FMCP http://www.workingdogs.com/deboer_elbow1.htm http://www.workingdogs.com/deboer_elbow2.htm http://www.vetmed.ucdavis.edu/VORL/canine.html http://www.vetsurgerycentral.com/elbow_dysplasia.htm http://www.offa.org/edanswers.html
by 4pack on 22 February 2008 - 21:02
Loise, what are the signs of DJD as I can not find any info about it on the links you posted. What does it appear like on the radiograph and how do they vets/OFA judge a dog grade 1 2 or 3 displastic?
by Louise M. Penery on 22 February 2008 - 21:02
You didn't check the links within the links that I posted.
Here is some more info on OFA's website:
http://www.offa.org/elbowgrade.html
http://www.offa.org/elbowgeninfo.html
DJD is essentially a sclerosis (sort of an erosion created by incongruity of the joint) within the elbow joint. DJD of the elbows is another form of OCD (osteochonditis dissecans).
http://cal.vet.upenn.edu/projects/saortho/chapter_84/84mast.htm#ocdmhumcond
http://cal.vet.upenn.edu/projects/saortho/chapter_84/84f15.jpg
by 4pack on 22 February 2008 - 21:02
Ah to hell with it, reading all of that means nothing to me. I'd need to see x-rays and have someone point out what it is we are looking at or for. Normal x-rays next to a DJD x-ray. That's the only way I'll learn.
by Louise M. Penery on 22 February 2008 - 22:02
OK--here are a couple of good, digital elbow xrays:
Don'f worry--that is not a crack along proximal radius (near the humerus). It's just where the radius overlays the ulna and is superimposed over the intact, medial coronoid process (another little "beak"--across from the anconeal process.. One does have to have an understanding of skeletal anatomy to appreciate what I'm trying to describe.
by 4pack on 22 February 2008 - 22:02
Yes I understand how the long bones cross over just like us humans. I'm affraid my expertise is in the equine foot or was years ago anyway. I'm not hip with the "lingo" for most parts at the skelatal level anyway, but what area are we focusing on for DJD?
by Louise M. Penery on 22 February 2008 - 22:02
As pertains to the elbow, DJD is generally located along the joint space separating the trochlear notch (used to be called the semi-lunar notch because of its shape) of the ulna and the chondyle of the distal humerus (the rounded end of the humerus).
However, DJD is rather a generic description. DJD of the elbow can occur alone or it may accompany either UAP or FCP. It is created by a jarring action (friction) due to the incongruity (poor fit) of the joint. and uneven growth of the 3 bones that comprise the elbow joint. It is this friction that causes the growth plates of the anconeal and coronoid processes to fail to close or to fragment.
Beyond this, you need to look at a dog skeleton. Models are available for purchase on the internet (even on eBay)! 
by 4pack on 22 February 2008 - 23:02
Hmm well from what I can (or should say can't) see on the x-rays, I'm going to just wait for 24 months and have a serious talking to with the vet next time. Never let a friend take my dog to the vet again. You miss out on all the questions you could have asked. The x-rays I am looking at aren't clear enough to me to see anything and what another vet pointed out to me (at another visit) as future arthritic changes, was absolutely not what you are pointing out Loise. I'm a bit miffed right now!
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