Active vs Silent guard - Page 2

two moons,

not more exciting, more convincing.   real life situation, i dont want my dog to bark at all, just go get the son of bitch.  but thats a different topic all together.

silent guard is easier.  tell dog to shut up, he gets a bite.  they learn that "revier" or " voran" means to find the helper and bark and that out means to shut up and sit still. 

also, you dont sound stupid.   you said in youre opening that you dont know much about schutzhund training.  decent topics like this are to educate, and share ideas.  much bettter than name calling.

john

I think that both methods have their place depending on which one is most logical for the strengths of the dog. I remember a dog Fiasko v Gerbruder-Grimm, who had a slient guard that was so intimidating in the BSP that he got standing ovations after each attack after outing because of his intensity and convincing bitework. For this dog this was very effective. For other dogs the H&B is right. Some of the prey monsters with the high pitched barks may also be more effective with silent out. All depends on individual dog and what accentuates the dog's strengths.

There are no point losses in Schutzhund for an intense silent guard, as long as the dog never looks away from the helper and outs cleanly, even if he does start barking, no points lost silent or not.  Also no points lost for barking guard, as long as the dog is clean, does not bother the  helper or bump the sleeve, and gets a good regrip.  There are potential point losses for both - if the active guarding dog bumps the sleeve, regrips or touches the helper, or is jumping up right when the regrip comes and misses a good grip - or in the silent guard if the dog looks around at the handler or backs off the helper too much and is not intense.

Bottom line, they both take training, and the method should depend on the dog.  I know dogs with nice active guards who are all over the helper and too "enthusiastic" to easily train them to be clean, who would do much better if they were taught a silent guard.  And there is nothing worse than a silent guard when the dog isn't guarding, but looking around for the handler or getting bored waiting - maybe that dog would do better with an active barking guard.

Also dogs that are not good natural barkers, who get tired easily and don't have good stamina, may do better with silent guarding, preserve their energy a little.  Barking guard uses up a lot of energy.  I have seen extremely intense silent guards that would never lose any points, and also "play" barking guards that are obviously not serious and would lose points for bouncing around.  Of course the dog must always bark in the blind.

Depends on the dog IMO.

molly

It is easier,  I would have thought harder just because I've seen how much energy the dogs put into it.

I know how excited my dog gets and she's not really a high drive dog.

I'm like you jletcher 18  I dont want my dog to bark except to alert me, and if I give the go no bark is nessessary.

I guess it is more convincing to watch from a judges stand point.  

I personally wouldnt set my dog onto a man.   I mean here at home in real life.  I deal with the two legged threat myself.

I know this has nothing to do with the sport,  I dont have access to clubs here and really couldnt travel for training or competitions.    I am impressed with the training that goes into Shutzhund, I can see how much work it really is and the knowledge required.

Thanks a lot for the posts guys.  Perhaps this board can once again become a valuable source of information.  I look forward to reading some more posts on this topic tomorrow, but as it is nearly midnight, I am going to bed. 

  To tell you the truth, you all have reestablished some faith for me.  I never suspected that a post about training, and without drama would gather so many responses. 

Good night and good training

I'm glad this topic was brought up because I assumed all dogs had to bark n hold and that a silent guard wasa no no.  My Agar does not bark n hold, he was trained to silent guard and for the longest time I wondered why he did not bark n hold and how he could have been titled if he doesn't bark n hold.  He's never been an overly vocal dog so I just thought that was the reason.  He's not the type to bounce up n down in the helpers face either.  I actually kinda like seeing a dog in the helpers face to be honest but that's just not Agar's style I guess.

I'm learning a great deal from this thread already. Thanks Zahnburg.

I guess I need to see this in person to really appreciate Shutzhund.

At this point all I've seen comes from youtube posts.   There is alot of good stuff there about the sport and training.

Good night zahnburg, and thanks.   You as well jletcher18, thanks.

To those that teach the silent guard...  which do you prefer..  the sit or the down?

Nice topic and input gang.  The sit and bark can be very telling about a dog.  The way the dog comes into the hot blind is the first impression the judge gets.  Some dogs slow down into the blind and give a half ass bark (not very intimidating or convincing.  But alas full points because it is technically correct.  I like to see the dog come around the hot blind hard and give almost a growl/snarl, clack of the jaws then settle into a nice rhythmic bark.  This picture shows a dog bringing the fight (some social aggression), settling to a rhythmic bark (training/control).  I'm not a fan of the jump and bark, complete waste of energy.  Looks impressive, low control and possible point loss.

The guard after the out I train silent.  This is more focused, wastes no energy and the dog gets a much better grip on the re-attack.  My silent guard I train from a sit.  Guard from the platz can take drive away which equals loss of intencity, can effect grip.

One thing I noticed from this thread and others is the lack of understanding of the schutzhund point system.  If you are unsure of points and deductions, obtain an UPDATED copy of the rules.  It can be very helpful when making training decisions.  I also noticed some questions regarding real life situations related to schutzhund C exercises.  Schutzhund is (was) a breed worthiness evaluation.  The exercises have been made easier over the years to keep people in the sport.  The trial is not the arena to choose a dog to be converted for personal protection or patrol work.  The evaluation for endeaveurs beyond schutzhund takes place at the training field. Sorry for the tangent.

Kyle

I had the opposite issue with my dog.  He was trained in silent guard but was always dirty after the out.  We eventually fixed the bumping (or so I thought), he didn't bump for 3 months straight...when he was silent and clean it was a solid guard, nice powerful stare through the helper.  Then I trialed him and all the bumping came back.  I decided to start teaching the active so he could release his energy by barking.  Below is a video when we first started changing from silent to active, it's been a long process to get him to automatically bark after the out but he's finally just starting to do it on his own (without command or signal) and he's been much cleaner.  When he was silent, if I was far from him he'd keep bumping till I got there. Once he starts barking he goes into a solid rythm, this is why I'm having less bumping with active than silent.