Elbow Ratings on German Shepherds - Page 2

The OFA has some interesting info on their website.  It is apparently the OFA position that heritability of elbow problems is more potent than HD.  Therefore, they suggest that any dog with less than their OFA normal rating for elbows (that includes even mild DJD or patchiness on the smooth areas of the bone at the joint, in addition to un-united anconeal process) should not be used for breeding, since this disorder will crop up again in the offspring. 

The elbow is a complex joint, affected by differing rates of growth of the bones involved.  If they grow out of balance and stay out of balance, the joint will be ill-fitting and patchiness and arthritic changes will occur.  To read these elbow xrays properly, it is best to use special filters on the light boxes.  The OFA is not perfect, however, and occasionally miss certain elbow joint irregularities which only show up on AP or oblique views, which the OFA doesn't require.

Overall, I feel safe using a dog for breeding that has an "OFA normal" elbow rating, and would require the other dog to have the same.  I think it is way too risky to breed any GSD with any garde less than "OFA normal" elbows, although slight patchiness will not necessarilly limit that dog's ability to compete in Sch Trials or the conformation ring or other work or training.  I think the SV is making a huge mistake setting their final elbow rating at 12 months and allowing secondary grades.  This will keep this problem around forever.  I estimate that at least approx 25% of all GSD born under SV registration have unclean elbow joints.  This is far too high and should be reduced by raising the Xray evaluation age to 24 months and only approving "a normal" for the a stamp.

Preston

I have no idea of How the SV works all i did was to take my Dog to a German Vet who is reputed to know his job well. So the X-Rays were sent to the SV in germany for its offical ratings

As the Vet said he can tell you what he thinks after he has taken the X-Rays and looked at them. He said he did not think the Elbows perfect but in his opinion they were not too bad and he was very suprised to here they had given him Middle dyplasia, and thought it very harsh

This is why i want a second opinion, and what i want to know is,

Can i take the Dog to a top Belgium Vet  like the 'university of Liege' and have his Elbows accessed by the Belgian Authories

Or do the German results stand for the Dogs life time

When  the Pup was 7 months old i took him to a top Bone Specialist Vet in Belgium who did an X-Ray of his Hips, He said at that time they were excellent and of A grading but said they needed to be done when he was Older as he now has

Plus the Vet who recently X-Rayed his Hips and Elbows said he rated his Hips A

But i wonder what rating the SV will give him when the results come back, Two vets have said they rate him A Hips and this is 7 months apart for the two X-Rays But i bet the offical results will not find this the same

Steve, as I understand the rules of the S.V.'s scoring system, once a dog's hips or elbows are given a score of "a" 1, 2, 3, 4, or 5, it can never be changed for better or worse. A dog's ZW can of course change every quarter during and after its life, but not his individual "a" stamp.

Perhaps you should submit the radiographs to the F.C.I. so they can assess them and furnish their findings to you. The F.C.I. is world-wide and oversees and governs all of the recognized breed clubs and also provide this screening service. I presume that one has to be a paying member of the F.C.I. to use this service, but I really do not know. They can be found on the web of course and I believe their headquarters are in Belgium.

Regards,

Bob-O

Bob

This means then that the first time a Dogs Hips and Elbows are Done and the result is known then that is the end of the matter.

His X-Rays were done in Germany, i want to take him to be accessed in Belgium,

No one is perfect, and if i were a breeder of which i am not then i would not think a breeder would keep the Dog so it would be the end of that animal

Why is it not possible to take the Dog to another Country and have the X-rays retaken there

If this is the case then it has to be a world wide rule from every country, Not just a German Rule

And if  this is correct then a lot of Dogs lives depend on one persons Judgement accessing these legs and hips, and that is not right or just

As for myself , regadless of the faults in his Elbows he will stay with me regardless that is certain

But i would like the chance of a reassessment in another country, i have to pay for it to be done and i should have the right  to be able to do it

Where can i read about the fact that if you have the Hips and Elbows X-rayed in one country this will mean they cannot be redone in a another country

Re-read Bob's post.  He said Germanys'  "a" stamp program will not change the rating.  He did not say you can't have them evaluated elsewhere, in fact he suggested you submit the xrays to the FCI program.  Google FCI for information regarding that program or talk to the people in your schutzhund club, surely they can give you some good information about the FCI program in Belgium.  Great Britain has it's own program too.

Yes'  I  misread Bobs Post,  Sorry Bob

Tomorrow i am going to phone up the Small Animal Clinic at  the University of Liege they are the best ones to go for Hip and Elbow X-Rays in Belgium and they are only 60 kms from me, and make an appointment for another set of X-Rays to be done, Hopefully in the next week or two

then i have found out they send them off to Koninklike Maatschappi, Sint Hubertus' for assesment then i will find out once and for all how he is

My Trainer is the current Belgian team Schutzund Captain, but he has been away for a couple of weeks abroad doing a few trials and seminars, He is not yet back home

It is a great shame as the Dog has tremendous Drive and is a good prospect according to a lot of  Schutzund People in the know,

but  if things are not as good as i hoped with his Elbows and perhaps his Hips still waiting for results of those from germany since the  X-Rays were taken in the middle of December 2007, we have tpo accept the fact, but i want to be 100% sure, so will get them done again

The Dog has never given any hint that he may have a problem, he does all he has too regards Protection Going over the A Frame and the wall

I will let you guys know the results since many have taken the trouble to reply to my Questions

If the results come back unchanged, just remember that although he will not be acceptable to be bred, he will still be a fun dog to work, and also remember dogs can't read x-rays, he may have no pain for many, many years and at that point, it will be most likely well managed with medication.

It's the heartbreak of our breed, but it's a good thing we find out so as to lessen the problem in generations to come.

I wish you good luck and hope new xrays will result in a better outcome.

Cheers, I will let you know

Interesting topic indeed.  Elbow dysplasia, while not prevalent as HD is seen more among particular family lines while HD is well engrained in the breed.  If there is any elbow dysplasia in the family, then it exists.  Unlike no HD in that wonderful 5  generation pedigree we get,  HD still exists, the gene pool is what it is.  But elbow dysplasia can  be eliminated or avoided in a breeding program or a dog purchase.  If you can't get enough information on the family line, you must xray and at 6 months you will know. 

The same is true for spondylosis, which is why sometimes you do need to xray the back.  It is either in the family line or not.  And I could go on about some other genetic defects.  

use a veterinarian who has much experience with xraying for these things.  It pays in the long run