Social Aggression - Page 2

Ditto Agar about learning something new.  THANKS everyone!

Kyle,

Based on your description, social aggression sounds like a very good thing for a working dog.  Would a dog with high social aggression be appropriate for a home with children?

Thanks.

Hi Topli,  Everything has a balance.  This is also dog specific, age of children and total dispositon of the dog.  All dogs must know pack order and know that they come last behind all human family members.  I like my house dogs to be handler hard ( can take a good correction without coming back at the handler).  We sometimes see dogs with weak nerves as house dogs.  This CAN be a problem because they can be fear biters, have low pain thresholds and bite from having an ear pulled or paw stepped on.  I would not rule out a dog for being in the house based on high social aggression alone.

I do believe that social aggression is a good thing and look for it when training dogs in grip work.

Kyle

Thanks, Kyle.  I hope I won't annoy you (or anyone else) with more questions.

How do you distinguish civil aggression from social aggression?  Is the former more defensive and reactive and the latter more pro-active?

Is social aggression a trait that one can detect in young dogs?

Thanks again.

here is another link about drives, written by helmut raiser, translated by armin winkler

http://www.schutzhundvillage.com/drives.html

john

Yes,this term is highly used by Koos Hassing of Tiekerhook kennel.He says that a dog MUST have social aggression.I take it to mean in the protection phase of schutzhund.

Kyle,thanks for posting that link with Koos.I enjoy seeing  good helper work as well .He got that dog to switch drives just like a Ferrari.

Topli, Civil is often reffered the dog that is willing to bite for real and can have a nervy component to it.  High civil dogs are not always thinking dogs because of the nervy component.  You have to be careful with this type of dog and must be a strong handler.  You often see civil dogs in law enforcement K9 situations.  For example you do not slip the sleeve when the dog is of lead.  This type of dog will spit the sleeve and go back at the helper.  I have been to schutzhund seminars where police k9 are being worked.  Strictly sport dog helpers are used to slipping the sleeve because the dogs are working mostly out of prey and have not been trained to be man aggressive.  On more than one occasion I have seen a K9 handler have to dive on top of their dog to hold them because the helper slipped the sleeve while the patrol K9 was off lead. 

During civil agitation the dog may fang up a little, snarl, growl and snap.  The hair may not stand up on the neck and back.  The dog looks as if he is ready to tear the helper to pieces.

Young dogs must not be tested for civil and defence drives at too early an age.  This testing should not be prolonged either.  Too many young dogs have been ruined by this type of work.  That is one reason why a dog cannot go for its sch 1 until 18 months.  Everyone wants to be in a rush.  Everyone wants to see how strong the dog is.  Sometimes it can take a dog a long time to recover from an adverse or unfair pressure.  Sometimes they don''t recover at all.  If a trainer tells you he likes his young dogs to be hard.  Run for the hills.  There is absolutly no reason to pressure a young dog for extended periods.  This is where it is helpful to know and understand certain lines of dogs.  Some lines don't mature until they are 2 or almost 3 years old and are mentally not ready for that much pressure.

Domenic I watched the video again and Koos and his helper do know how to turn dogs on and release the pressure.  I like their training style and philosphy very much.

Kyle

Zahnburg, thank you for this link:

http://www.workingdogs.com/dom1.htm

I used to read a lot on this site, but it was long ago and I forgot about it completely. Thanks again!

KYLE,

thank you for this link:

http://video.aol.com/video-detail/koos-hassing-tiekerhook-seminar-segment-2/3046124250

But I realized that I didn`t catch the difference between social and instrumental aggression there.

My older dog is the type of dog working with which helpers can`t relax. She didn`t understand conventionality of sport, could bite the helper`s hand when he tried to reach her with the stick. We spent plenty of time working on drive channelling. Armin Winkler`s articles helped a lot!

http://www.schutzhundvillage.com/prey1.html

http://www.schutzhundvillage.com/prey2.html

Now she enjoys training, but helpers still don`t trust her as she can drop the slipped sleeve and attack the helper.

But what I really want to understand now is my young dog`s behavior. He is nearly 10 months old. He thinks that not only the flat belongs to him (we live in an apartment block) but also the elevator and the territory around the building. Inside the flat he sometimes chooses something he likes and doesn`t want to let it go.

It`s OK, don`t worry! I`m not going to squeak  " Dominant male dominates me!"

We are working on it! We communicate a lot, we do obedience at home and outside. He really loves training!

I don`t want the dog to look at me sheepishly. And I think Erko doesn`t want it either.  So I don`t correct him but switch his attention into something I want.

I just wanted to know - can it be regarded as social agression? If not - what is it? (I hope it doesn`t sound silly.  Please, don`t forget - English is not my native language... )

I just wanted to mention once again that I like this type of behavior and I am not confused. It is very interesting to train this dog.

I just wonder whether it is what Donovan qualifies as social aggression or not.

Thank you.

Olga