Vom Banach K9 - Page 2

I like the look of V Aron Vom poppitz and V Walko Vom Grafental in their photos on this site.  I like their confirmation and overall male type.

I wasn't attacking anyone, merely making a statement about the majority of these type of dogs.

Your reply about me meeting your dog without a sleeve is typical of the owners of these DDR dogs, I don't place any emphasis on sport but 99.9% of DDR owners will state that their dogs are just to serious for any sport, I interpret this as an excuse.

PS  There are no DDR dogs anymore, the originals may have been different.

I can't say I've ever heard anything negative about vom Banach. 

"Civil" to me is any of the dogs (usually trained for Law Enforcement or PP in some instances) who will, on or off lead, go to "bite" whether there is a sleeve or no sleeve and will hold on regardless of the "fight by the bad guy" or the distractions/yelling/commotion around him, or until told by (or removed by in some cases) to "out". If he/she does lose the grip, for whatever reason, he/she goes back again, and again, until the "out" or "quit" command is given...or the dog is pulled off, whichever the case. 

That being said I have a very good friend and two other close friends who all have DDR line dogs.  The one close friend's dog is a cadaver dog who is virtually bombproof around everyone unless he perceives a threat and then his owner/handler knows how to read those subtle indications.   The other two are both healthy, happy family companions who go regularly on outings and occasionally compete in obedience competitions for fun.

You people are funny, do you actually believe that allowing a dog to interpret any given situation by itself and allow it to react according to his instincts is more reliable than a trained response to a command ??

There are just too many people that think their dog will bite if the situation warrants it, the truth is when the majority of dogs are seriously challenged they are more likely to simply blow their anal glands and head for the next county.

There is only one way to be sure your dog is "civil" and I doubt if many here can honestly make that claim.

dawgma, you sure must have seen a lot of "whimp" and incorrect temperament in GSDs.  Have you ever tested them in real time? Years ago an acquaintance told me of local seeing eye GSDs that were sound, stable and friendly, but were complete take down artists that would never pass on a good fight.  I didn't believe him and had to see them perform.  One of them, a local legend "Flash" took down and took apart a seasoned Sch trainer, and this dog had no training of any kind.  His owner was merely aggressively attacked by the handler dressed in a padded training suit with a stick.  The dog hit him in the chest, took him down and proceeded to shake him like a rag doll.  To say the least the observers including myself were shocked.  I had to take back what I said and admit I was wrong.  The handler had told the owner Bill ___ "watch me make your dog a peeing mess when I come out running". Most of the GSDs out of this w. German breeding we tested in real situations, including forced home entry, warehouse, and attempted car jackings did the same.  And yet these dogs were very docile around family members, children and other pets.  There is no substitute for real time provocation and testing of GSDs.  We tested American Shepherds too and a small percentage did the job, with even an occasional spook that would fight unbelievably hard because of excessive defensive drive once the dog was adequately provoked.  The most territorial GSDs seemed to be the ones most willing to take on any agitator, anytime, anyplace.  These were the GSDs that had a pronounced need to take command of their territory and space surrounding themselves and their master, and were always certain to establish themselves head of the pack over any other dogs, or even their owner if allowed. There is no substitute for a correctly temperamented GSD that lives in the house full time with his master as far as willingness to defend the homestead when appropriate against a real threat.  I have seen some alpha bitches that were quicker to "hit the target" than bigger males, more dominant, more agile and faster.  I would never underestimate the innate home protection value of an alpha female.

This is really getting off topic, my fault I guess.

Preston, like I said you people are funny. Urban Legends, statements starting with "years ago", stories of unnamed dogs perfoming incredible feats of courage,  PFtttttttttt

What is incredible to me is someone that thinks any dog can be all of what you describe and still be a family dog.

There are too many conflicts in owning a dog with serious protection qualities and having these types of dogs living with you and your family 24/7, I think your speaking of an alerting/watchdog type.

A dog that is truly aggressive/dominant, and these are mutually inclusive in reality, does not do well in a family situation the way you describe it.

But don't let me interrupt your fantasy.

And in closing, you and most people I've read here sound like they have been internet trained when it comes to descibing dogs abilities and behaviors.

I suppose people have to rely on their own experience, there is nothing to gain by bullshitting.

dawgma, I agree with you. . I lived with a Alpha Male PP dog. They are situational trained and because of that, I do not find them safe in a "Family enviroment". You have a set of rules you have to live by and if you do not, the dog reacts within seconds. I forgot them once and had him at my throat, was very thankful there was a door between us that I could use to keep him off me. My dad forgot once also, he found himself in the shower for a few hours until my Mom got home and called him off, even durring this couple of hours and Stormy becomming aware that it was my Dad, to bad=rule broke. He was there for a reason and was not a family pet. I think it hard for family members over time not to try and treat like a pet and forget the rules. He would react without any thought given, broke rule=take down, period.  I do not think most people can even comprehend what living with him was like. You could take him out for a walk and know one would ever know what you had on the other end of the leash. You just had to be aware so no rules were broken and god forbid you ran into another male he decided he did not like and you would not let him take down the other dog, He would be pissed off for days. i had him on a walk once and another male went to challenge him, it took all I had to pull and call him off, yelling at the owner of the other dog. I knew he was very upset with me, well when we got home and in the door and I took off his leash, he body slammed me. He would never start something with another dog (he would ignore, if they would ignore), but by heaven he was going to finnish anything anyone else started and by not allowing him to do so, went to his core.

Dawgma, what I stated is no urban legend.  There were many witnesses who saw this dog "Flash" and they had real names.  The breeder was LaSalle Kennels of Minnetonka, Minnesota (accross the highway from where I worked for many years) which owned Master Eye Foundation, which imported, bred and trained GS seeing eye dogs for the blind.  One witness present besides the owner and Sch trainer who was head of the local Sch club was an AKC Judge (still living as is the dog's owner).  My grandfather was this kennels vet back in the 40's, 50's, and early 60's. I have no reason to lie about this or exaggerate.

I am sharing this story so that folks have a chance to know that there actually is normal GSD temperament available that will give very good family protection and still be calm, stable and docile around the family and friends.  One need not go to so-called self-proclaimed sch or working line experts who try to tell you all this training is necessary to have good protection in the home. Often these folks get so wrapped up in sch raining and competition and protection, and keeping their bevy of trained dogs in the kennel only, that they can't see the forest through the trees. They lose sight of what a normally temperamented GSD is in their quest for insane prey drive at all costs, including the sanity of the breed.

I am so sick and tired of supposed GSD sch experts who know nothing about correct temperament of GSDs in real time situations.  I do not like GSDs that are "personal protection trained" unless they are perimeter dogs for high security SCI areas and which cannot get loose.  I like GSDs that are family pets and are naturally dominant and protective because it is instinctive due to good breeding and selection over generations.  I suggest you go back and read and study Capt. Von Stephanitz's book. The dog that 1doggie2 referred to is completely inappropriate for everything but high security or antiterrorism "wet" entries. 

One time a lady worked for me that had two Boviers.  Neither was protection trained.  Both were obediance trained and were easy going.  But on her home turf or if she felt threatened in any way, these dogs were extremely aggressive and would never run from any fight. They were both over 95 pounds and were afraid of nothing. This is correct temperament too.

Preston, 

A naturally aggressive dog with no training is exactly that, also unpredictable in any situation. Capt. Von Stephanitz's book is just rhetoric and doesn't apply to what is available now anyway.

I am not a sch expert by the way,  thank you for sharing your stories.