Colors - Page 2

Every GSD carries two color genes.  Only two.  Each puppy inherits one color gene from each parent.  There are only three base colors - in order of dominance - sable (dominant over all other colors), black/tan, black (recessive to all other colors).  If the sire is a sable that means he obviously carries sable gene.  Any puppy that inherits a sable gene will be a sable dog as it is the dominant color.  If the sire has produced black puppies before, then yes he carries a black recessive.  Black dogs inherit one black gene from each parent, therefore it takes two parents with black genes to produce black puppies.  If the sable/black sire bred to the black dam produced black/tan or bicolor puppies, that means either the dam is in fact black/tan and not black, or the puppies were sired by another dog.

molly

I understand that, but if the dam is in fact a bi color, rather than a solid black, could she still produce black/tan or bi colors with the sable sire who carries for black? Or does black/tan have to come from both parents? Most of the puppies are very dark, bi colors, maybe all bi color, too young to say for sure. I have spoken with the previous owner of the dam and they believe that she is a bi color also. I have checked and she does have very faint tan hairs between her toes. They said that they bred her twice to a sable male when they had her, and she produced on black/tans and solid blacks. Seems strange to me, thus the reason I am trying to learn more about this. Could she be a bi color and also carry black? and the sire be a sable, also carry for black? Seems so unlikely that all the puppies would come out bi color. Is it just unlikey, or impossible?

Yes, she could be a bicolor or black/tan and carry black.  Remember it this way - three colors only, every dog carries two, sable is dominant so any dog carrying sable gene IS a sable dog.  Black/tan is dominant over black but recessive to sable.  So yes a black/tan dog can carry a black gene and therefore produce black puppies.  Black puppies can be produced by two non-black parents, as long as both parents carry a black recessive.   Sable puppies cannot be produced from two non-sable parents.  Black puppies cannot be produced, even if one parent is black, if the other parent does not carry a black recessive.  However, in such a mating, ALL puppies would carry black recessive (if one parent is black).

It is simple, but confusing at the same time.  The best way to tell a bicolor, even a very dark one, from a solid black is to lift teh tail and look at the hair surrounding the anus.  If it's brown there, the dog is a bicolor (even if there is no other brown on the body)  - if it's black, the dog is genetically black (even if there is brown on the feet/legs).

If the female produced black/tan puppies when bred to a male sable with known black recessive, then she is indeed genetically a black/tan, not black.  Because if she were black, she would only have black genes to give to the puppies - no black/tan - and if the male is sable/black then again, no black/tan to give.

molly

Thank you very much Molly for taking the time to help me out with that. I was just concerned that I may have had a dual sired litter, although I can't imagine how, but if the colors I got weren't possible.... Thank you for putting my mind at ease.

Rockinranch

How old are the puppies that you are looking at. The birth color may be confusing you as to what the adult color will be.

I have used this site to show people how the sable color can develop throughout the life of the dog. Many people have no idea what a "sable" is and this explains it in text and photographs as the puppy goes from 3 weeks to 25 weeks ,even showing a single banded hair to illustrate. This also has great information and photos regarding color genetics. I do not have any knowledge of this breeder but have found the information about color genetics helpful.

http://www.jmadesign.com/Frankenhaus/colorgen01.shtml

I hit submit too fast - here is another good illustrated site for coat colors.

http://www.4gsd.net/colours~ns4.html

Molly thanks for all the great info in ez to understand terms.  Crooked Ranch thanks for the links........

Thought you all would love this picture  3 colors of pups pictured  with my grandaughter  . dam is black and tan  sire is sable .............all 4 babies  mostly west german :))

that's a great picture.  All 4 puppies have the same "what the heck did she plop us down here for?" expression.  Their ears all look about the same too -